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  1. #21
    I have not done any additional testing before responding to this, I figure I should prob start by saying that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    Comments so far as I'm reading the feedback:

    1) Hamsters and Chickens are equivalent in power. The Squirrels are equivalent. Marmots and Pine Martens are equivalent. I updated the first post to reflect that.
    I think this is a good idea to group these together like this. I think the most important part however is to keep the health and damage ratios the same between them, so if your fighting for example a 40hp squirrel it should deal as much damage as a 40hp marmot or rat. This way new players can look at small creatures and know what to expect damage wise by looking at their hps. I think marmot+pine and below should be locked by this rule, while larger game like dogs, coytes, coons, deer and bears should be able to have access to higher values since they will be around new players less in the low danger zones.

    2) I added the various age and power ranks to the first post. Age and power are separate. A creature can be an Adolescent that has fought a lot and has a lot of power, or can be an Ancient creature that has earned no combat power.
    Its good to get a clear list of how your organizing the names/titles, so this helps clear up what I'm looking at in their names.


    3) All creatures currently attack at a rate of 1.5 seconds. That can be used to determine FPS. I can adjust the attack rate of individual creatures if so desired. I welcome feedback on that.
    Whats player weapon attack rates? Between the two values we should be able to figure out dps of both the player and creatures to more accurately balance this.

    4) Creature life and damage are currently based on formulas. Most creatures are basically set up like this:

    - in child phase life can double based on age and double again based on combat power
    - the youngest adult creature starts at 4 times the minimum life
    - in adult phase life can double based on age and increase 1.5 times more based on combat power
    - overall the max power adult's life would thus be 12 times the youngest baby

    - attack power follows a typical progression but the difference between minimum and max damage is around 8 to 10 times.

    - Both of these depend on the creature types.
    I think the difference here is too wide and there would be benefit to tightening up these values so theres not such a wide difference between creatures.

    You could keep the currently system of using so many life updates, however, would just have to change the min and max values so that each step along the way added less hps so the difference between min and max wasn't as much since each "times" would add less hp, while the creature starting with more base hp. This would give the end creature the same hp while making the younger stages more tanky and closer to the final creature so there isn't such a power difference between them.

    5) I did deliberately set up creatures so that the weakest one type may be weaker than the toughest of a 'lesser' type. For example an ancient, legendary hamster would be more formidable than a baby marmot with no combat experience.
    The reasoning behind this is that the 'normal' creatures in Xsyon are not supposed to be entirely normal, hence the unrealistically large sizes on legendary and adult animals.
    this makes sense, but currently with higher end creatures having hps at around 40hps for children than it seems like they are weaker than they should be, a deer child could be possibly as weak as a dog or cat but anything lower seems too weak due to its blunt size, its born the size of a smaller dog and bigger than a cat, so it shouldn't be any weaker than that.
    I agree the creature size could go up in general, the older ones could be a lil bigger and the freshly born are nearly a dot you can't click so the range of size should be tightened up too so its not such a wide difference.


    6) Regarding mutants - any age creature can go into the mist and become a mutant. It's always been that way. I don't intend all mutants to be boss creatures, just the adults and especially the legendary ancient ones should require groups to take down.
    I agree that there should be some less strong versions so not every one is a boss..... However... I really don't think a 50hp or even 100hp or less mutant child at 0.20 to .040 power is a very good mutant.

    Could we do something in the middle and make it so that only 0.60 power and higher can become mutants? so .6 .8 and 1.0 creatures can become mutants while .20 and .40 need to age up more before? Seems silly to convert .20 and .40 creaures to mutants when they are just going to be a weak version of a "boss" but also give bad drops.

    I think it will be cool to have some baby mutants that players can have as pets.
    I don't disagree it would be cool, but wouldn't it be extremely over powered to capture a baby mutant than raise it up to fully grown? How would this be balanced in pvp if you can show up with a 2-3k hp bear after raising it?


    7) Regarding large creature hit boxes. The hit boxes scale linearly as the creature scales so it's strange that it wouldn't match a larger creature. I will check it out.
    maybe its placement? Cuz you seem to be able to hit mutant bears fine from the front, however, you gotta be like inside of his butt to be able to hit him from behind. Same with deer, fully grown ones seem to be only able to hit from front, not from the back.

    So it could be a centering issue, where due to how the box is centered its going more towards the face than the rear, so the creature character blocking is preventing us from getting to where the box is from the back cuz its too far forward on the creature character.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Overall, it sounds like you guys are asking for much less of a difference between a newborn baby critter and a max legendary one for normal creatures. I think a double increase is too little and would make 'ancient legendary' small creatures seem weak.

    The minimum power child is supposed to be a newborn that is quite weak.

    I think a 2 to 4 times increase in damage and 5 times increase in hp (maybe more) would be better. The current 10 to 12 times increase I guess is too much.

    For mutants you guys are asking for a 2 to 4 times damage increase, speed increases and up to a 30 times life increase. That's quite a difference in life but I can try something like that and we'll see.
    This all sounds great, by making less power ups it could make the gaps closer.... However... if you lowered the amount each increase was you could keep the same times of increase by changing the values so each increase adds less, this way you could have a higher base health and due to the lower increases, the value between max and min would be closer due to less added per increase.

    Would require some math to change the value but in theory the current system could be adapted without reducing the amount of increases... however if its easier to just reduce the amount of increases and produces the same result than thats good too.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Questions:

    1) Do you guys think that player damage is too much? It scales up a lot compared to creatures because of all the factors involved (strength, skill, weapon quality, skill power).
    Currently? No, I think if I'm dealing 30 dmg to a guy with 3k hps I need to hit him 100 times while he only needs to hit me 5 times, so I'd say this is already a extremely hard fight that we would need multiple people for... for sure do not do enough damage to solo this or feel overpowered. This is with a xmas shovel and 109 strength after tribe buff, so above where you think 95% of the game is... so seeing how 95% of people are weaker than me, I really don't think damage should be reduced since nobody has any damage.

    Charged attack/power attack or whatever you want to make it to be would be your damage increase.

    Currently I feel charged attack is a bit op since it does alot of damage and supports the older style of poke n walk back combat that we're trying to phase away from.

    2) How many hits from a veteran player do you think an ancient legendary mutant bear should be able to take? Around 100 or so attacks? More?
    Somewhere around 100 hits seems fair, yes, with 5 people you need to hit him 20 times each while the 5 of you can take roughly 20 hits total between you.

    Bear should be really really hard, possibly people taking a brake to heal up and use restorative food before heading back in. It should be the ultimate boss in the game, no challenge great than.

    I will update the creature stats based on this feedback and will post again when a new build is ready.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Note: I will be switching the data on the Test Server between the Peace and War Server data sets as we have players from both servers that want to test on their main toons.
    Cool I get to use my peace toon than, this is a good thing cuz I wanted to test with someone who was quite a bit weaker than I am currently on pvp. So this is good, I can test different things now on a weaker guy.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    My suggestion is because of this, mutants should give more resources (especially hides) this will encourage groups to want to hunt them.

    I believe that mutants because of how hard they are and will be requiring groups should get 1.25 x resources per age level and 1.25 x per power level.

    This would make examples.
    Child Rookie give 1.5 x resources.
    Child Lessor give 1.75 x resources.
    Adult Greater give 3 x resources.
    Ancient Legendary give 4 x resources.


    Damage looks pretty good to maybe a bit to high on all the animals I see (including mutants) I'm wearing 100QL armor.

    I believe another factor here should likely be instead of lowering damage a bit, I think a better option is increase the effect of armors (player).

    This looks really good. I do believe ALL mutants need to be increased in size. They are not big enough for their power/HP and players need to be able to see this is not just a meek rat.
    I agree that if this is a boss mutant that the drops need to go up in order for there to be enough drops for everybody to share the rewards. Instead of 4 leather/skin it should be at least 3 times that or more imo.

    But this brings up a whole other problem, nobody is going to want to spend the time to kill a legendary bear if its .6 or .8 so the only times people are going to actually engage on a boss bear like this is for 1.00 leather.... so why do we even have .6 to .8 mutant bears or lower if everybody is going to collectively ignore them till they age up to 1.00?

    What if instead of change of power, we had change of drops.

    So if you kill a .60 power mutant bear instead of getting 0.60 power drops, you instead get less of them. So lets say 4 skin/leather 1.00 if the bear was supposed to be .60, while make it 8 skin/leather 1.00 if the bear was supposed to be 8.0 while making it 12-16 skin/leather if the bear was supposed to be 1.00.

    This way theres actually a reason to fight the 0.60 power bears instead of ignoring them, cuz they would drop useful materials, 1.00 power skin/leather, just less of it than if it was a bigger mutant bear.

    This could be said for all mutants really, nobody is going to want to spend the time to kill a boss for drops that are worthless, so the point is to get 1.00 power drops, most times purely the skin/leather.... So by making it so every mutant drops at least a low amount of something useful, it makes all the weaker boss mutants huntable to people, not just only the 1.00 max age/power ones.
    Last edited by Static; 06-12-2020 at 12:16 PM.

  3. #23
    Just to be clear, when I say something like "I think a 2 to 4 times increase in damage and 5 times increase in hp" I mean that the maximum damage would be 2 to 4 times the minimum damage and maximum hp would be 5 times minimum hp. I am not talking about the number of times the update function runs.

    Hit boxes are all scaled off the creature models center but I will run some measurements and tests. Some of the hit boxes may be off and not contain a creature in specific animations (like attack animations) and the incorrect box would become more pronounced as the creature gets scaled up.

    I was suggesting lower player damage as I am having to set creatures' hp very high to make them a challenge. If I lower player damage, of course I would also lower the hp of creatures to make sure things remain in balance. Lowering player damage would make creature and player damage more in line with each other. It would also make PvP combat take longer and give lower hp toons more of a chance against higher hp toons (more chances to run at least).

    But if the current values are good for PvP I will leave them.

    Here are the attack rates (in seconds between attacks) and base damage for player weapons:

    Axes 1.2 seconds 4.8 damage
    Clubs 1.3 seconds 5.2 damage
    Blades 0.9 seconds 3.6 damage
    Picks 1.4 seconds 5.6 damage
    Shovels 1.5 seconds 6.0 damage

    DPS for all is 4 damage / second

    Increasing the resources gathered from the mutants as suggested makes sense.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Xsyon; 06-12-2020 at 12:56 PM.

  4. #24
    Let's discuss the other half of the player base now.

    Last night me and a fellow player got targeted by... i dunno a deer? I never had offensive skills on this tune (not even on the PvP server). My comrade did but simply not have enough to take it down.

    So, after it targeted him (him having full stamina) he could not get away from it. It literally followed him through the entire zone until he ran out of stamina and ate him.

    I've read something about this before... suggestions I think? All these fancy numbers don't mean much if you can't get away from it There needs to be some sort of distance meter? Some kind of cutoff mechanism. Even embankments wouldn't stop this player eater. Something to consider while tinkering with the AI.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by fuquashawn View Post
    Let's discuss the other half of the player base now.
    I welcome all feedback. I wish more players would join in these sessions!

    Quote Originally Posted by fuquashawn View Post
    So, after it targeted him (him having full stamina) he could not get away from it.

    It literally followed him through the entire zone until he ran out of stamina and ate him.
    These is a distance where you can escape creatures. Do you know if your friend was sprinting, or simply running? Running would be hard to get into the escape range. Sprinting, it should be pretty easy unless the player is encumbered or out of stamina.

    I will look into this and make adjustments. It shouldn't be impossible to escape combat.

    Thanks

  6. #26
    Might be a hard thing to balance this for both pvp (requiring more of a challenge in combat) and pve (where people avoid combat and build instead)

    I was suggesting lower player damage as I am having to set creatures' hp very high to make them a challenge. If I lower player damage, of course I would also lower the hp of creatures to make sure things remain in balance. Lowering player damage would make creature and player damage more in line with each other. It would also make PvP combat take longer and give lower hp toons more of a chance against higher hp toons (more chances to run at least).
    Dealing 29-33 damage with 109 strength with 90+ armed and pickaxe with a xmas shovel is pretty top tier damage, 95% of players most likely have well under this, I do NOT feel this is overpowered at all if 95% of players are doing this damage or less.

    The point of having 2-3k hps is so that its:
    1) a marathon (you cant kill it in a few hits if a few of you gang up on it)

    2) requires multiple people or a very large, nearly impossible investment of time from a single player.

    Thats what ddt is talking about when hes saying people "solo them" bears with 2k+ hp, hes talking about someone spending a good amount of time running away, healing, than refighting the same bear, this isn't one straight fight, but rather multiple engagements for a solo player to do this since their health wouldn't hold up, they would need to heal multiple times to take down a bear like that.

    Sure you can say food makes that a lil easier with health regain rate but your still talking about a unreasonable battle for the 0.5% of players who can solo, but a decent fight for multiple players.

    We should not be balancing the game after the 0.5% or less players who have reached the max hp stat of the game, if they can solo something by fighting, than running, than healing, than refighting again, there really isn't anything you can do to stop that by reducing their damage, it will just take them longer to do it.

    Too much player damage requiring more creature health isn't the problem, the fact you want to turn mutants into boss's is the reason why the health is high, you can't both have them a raid boss requiring multiple people AND have them have low health.
    Last edited by Static; 06-13-2020 at 02:42 AM.

  7. #27

    Don't forget the escape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    I welcome all feedback. I wish more players would join in these sessions!



    These is a distance where you can escape creatures. Do you know if your friend was sprinting, or simply running? Running would be hard to get into the escape range. Sprinting, it should be pretty easy unless the player is encumbered or out of stamina.

    I will look into this and make adjustments. It shouldn't be impossible to escape combat.

    Thanks
    We had just rested, full bars. We sprinted until half bar and ran till empty. There was no getting away from that battle. Keep in mind, we were doing nothing but attempting to evade the engagement (we were a distance from start with no re-spawn point), just wasn't possible. When I say an entire zone i'm not being facetious i am being literal.

    I bring it up because long before a fight a noob will be running from them. Getting away should be the first numbers we look at, then engagement numbers in my humble opinion.

  8. #28
    3k hps at 30 damage per hit is 100 hits. 5 players 20 hits each, each player having 250hps means each player takes 5 hits from a mutant bear for a total of 20 hits between them.

    This seems balanced to me towards your goals of wanting it to be a multiple person fight.

    Sure one guy with 350hp like ddt could solo it with maybe 80-100 hits but he could only take 7-8 hits himself so he would need to heal multiple times in order to get all 80+ hits on the bear to kill it, yes its possible, but its only possible cuz his hp pool is so high to go in, hit n get hit, run n heal, than go back n attack it again... it would take at least 5+ heals for someone to solo a bear like this, its really not something people can solo without heavy hit and run+heal abuse.

    So damage is not the problem here when nobody can become stronger than a regular deer or bear... again the reason why the health is so high is cuz you've stated your goal to be that it requires multiple people to kill it, this naturally requires a bigger hp pool if you truly want to make it a "boss"

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