The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

[BLinDDeniaL]

Ciik wrote:

Me too. I want to play the game I want to play to. Many of us have expectations. And if this is the demanding or outreach thread, I'll make a case for a reasonable model.

Controlled progressive open PvP like EvE. Not only has it progressed to one of the most successful indie games in the market over 7 years, it holds as large if not large and more consistent player-base than many "A" mature studio mmorpgs. So it isn't dying in the next 2-years, and its studio is able to use its success to branch into other development avenues.

Sure, EvE is exponentially more successful than A Tale in the Desert, Roma Victor and Wurm in the indie universe; way more successful. EvE is by far a better template than Wurm when it comes to player interactivity and player vs player mechanics; the market tells us it's so. And to suggest EvE is going to die out after 2 years is silly.

So yet with a bare-bones game, CCP managed to eventually grow and Prosper. Why? It wasn't a matter of pure random luck. EVE as it was released was a mostly-empty sandbox, where the focus of the endgame was on player conflicts not presided over by the devs.

As an Indie fan, I'm glad to see more games like the aforementioned, and the more sandboxy the better. The more well-implemented sandboxy for an Indie, the more attractive it is to a more loyal and larger fan-base, imho.

Dark Age of Camelot is a very restrictive RvR game, and so is WAR. WAR, another controlled, pigeon-holed PvP experience that failed to sustain an initial audience due to the shallow nature of its shoe-box RvR, not to mention its been sheer lack of anything appealing, leading to it's hemorrhaging subscriptions ever since it launched. So a tightly controlled RvR design like WAR is a bad example to use against pvp imho since its endgame has shown to crash and burn shortly after launch.

So, yes, a sandboxy game doesnt have to be all about PvP and we've seen that, and it doesnt have to be ffa no consequence pvp, but a better Indie game does have progressively unrestricted open PvP and areas of calm; with the areas of calm and safety that doesn't demean the progressive games sandboxy player-centric value, but accentuates it without over-running it.

So I call for the Case For an Icelandic Model. A successful model proven to lead to a process of iterative organic growth within the game; incrementally.

Rather than take the tired design route of another PvE-centric or DAoC RvR platform, CCP's goal was rather to find a niche and expand it slowly; they win and their Icelandic Business Model wins.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...el_of_mmo_.php

If the developers intend to make this an overly restricted and confining PvE or RvR themepark I'd like them to let me know now so I don't waste my time either.

This...

Imo this is a more logical post than the OP's one - however the OP has a point though.

I just don't agree with the way he made it

[frogeye]

I agree totally that XSYON should be - in my eyes - a more constructive and playing-together game to make 'sense' through seeing things grow. If I'm watching the tribe-list that seems to be, besides some few, the main goal of them too.
For myself I have to say that I'm tired of all those PVP games, they are just a waste of time und there is no end in the blood-circle. Even outlaws in 'red' aren't made wise and continue their silly path, making it neccessary to always watch over my shoulder, to buy protecting-stuff not to loose points. In a game where there is no sense than killing mobs this may be okay though, because 'fighting' is the essential thing there on this or that way.
In a game where building cities and communities and an infrastructure is the main part that would be annoying just like in real world where you want to build a house and concentrate on this job and you have to carry a shotgun always with you....
On the other side I know that the existence of the risk that you possibly are attacked and that there are enemies either NPCs or humans gives the whole something prickling, what is keeping you 'awake' . So I have no idea if there is THE path to how should PVP be implemented.
One thing is clear to conclude: If 'constructing' players are forced to begin again and again from scratch they will leave the game very fast and you stand there with just-another-boring-mmorpg-like-all-the-others.

[jefferysauto]

Blue Pig wrote:

After being in the game for a few hours I see that this stage of testing resembles Alpha more than Beta, so if I'm going to test the game for "free" for the next 6 months to a year I'm going to want to play the "finished" product the way "I" want to play it. If I can't, I'd appreciate the developers telling me so I can spend my time differently.

And how do "I" like to play? I like to play a successful game that has staying power and long term appeal for the "majority" of players. No Unrestricted Open PvP game has yet been successful, and no Unrestricted Open PvP game will ever be successful.

What do I mean by success? A game can be a financial success and still suck. STO is a prime example of a game that is a huge financial success and is also one of the worst MMOs out there. Why? Cryptic is great at lying and Star Trek fans don't know when to cut their losses. It's not an Unrestriceted Open PvP game, btw.

EVE-Online (a Semi-Unrestricted Open PvP game) spends a lot on advertizing to make up for the players that leave (and I sold 3 five-year-old accounts so that helps the game have staying power as well). It's a niche game that will fizzle out in two more years. Tredo made a post about it here:

http://xsyon.com/forums/30-prelude-t...-learned#22947

and his reference is the following review of EVE by a player:

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Mopar63/...hy-EVE-No-More

I agree with that review 100%.


Eve is a PvP game where there is Unrestricted Open PvP in most areas (generally speaking). There is safe space and usually people would be foolish to try to kill you there, but they can, so there really is no absolutely safe space (therefore it's an Unrestricted Open PVP game at its core). But EVE safe space was good enough for me. As it is, to get the better ores you have to leave safe space, and when you do, you'd better have an armada. Tredo's link to the review explains it.

Dark Age of Camelot is, of course (minus the mez spells and the hacks) the best type of PvP game--RvR in a Frontier Zone. That game is still around (since 2001), and for good reason.

Darkfall has a low population as far as I can see (under 10k players and probably much, much less). I can understand why. Unrestricted Open PvP. While being near your starting area grants you good protection, your newbie fighting areas, where you get your fighting skills up, are often camped by friends and foes alike, usually on the weekends (as I said, it's a low population game for good reason).

One day I decided to get some mediocre "but for me, expensive" gear and fight the goblins just outside the fort but beyond the range of the towers. Now I had been killed before, but it was by reds and they were enemies (of my race and allies). Meh, okay. No big loss. But this time I paid a pretty penny (for me) for gear. I went to the goblins and was killed by an ally helping his buddy level. I thought it was cheesy, but okay, it happens. I went back and behold, he had taken my crappy but "expensive to me" gear. I asked him why. He said it was for his newbie friend. Mind you, this was an ally (me elf--him dwarf). We bantered back and forth, I didn't whine and laughed about it, and he came into town and made me even better gear. Hey, nice. Great.

But you know what, apart from the awful grind that DF is, I realized that this would be a common occurrence (minus the nice guy giving me the gear back). This would happen over and over, just mindless griefing for no reason and with no great consequences, so I decided I'd let them grief someone else. It wasn't a rage quit. It was a logical decision not to continue playing a bad game.

How would you like to go out, get killed, go out, get killed, go out... and so forth? I don't like that. I came to play a reasonable game, not be a punching bag for someone 80 times my level who is too afraid to fight characters his own level. While there are no levels in DF, I'm sure you get my meaning.

And how do I define Unrestricted Open PvP? It's a game that griefers flock to. It's a game where any player, usually the type that likes to kill for mindless fun (his fun) does exactly that, and suffers no meaningful penalty, if any. In the process he ruins the other player's gaming experience and that player usually quits. That's just bad game design. That's a failure of a game before it even starts.

How does this relate to Xsyon? Xsyon is a "building" game. People will build structures, roads and so forth. But it will be a low population game for some time. I go to sleep. People in my tribe will go to sleep (irl). How do we defend in an online game when we're asleep? Let's take a look at WURM (I'm currently playing that as well). Crappy animations (if you can call them that) but a reasonable Semi-Open PvP system (as I call it). As you build your town, or whatever you want to call it, you can build towers that spawn powerful guards that defend the town. As you expand, you can build more towers. Now these guards aren't omnipotent. A large enough force can defeat them. But I'm happy that it deters aggression enough to have the enemy think and plan very hard if they want to attack. Notice the words think and plan as opposed to mindless and meaningless. Also, it simulates the innate advantage a defender would have in an area he knows better than the attacker.

And if you're a student of paleoarchaeology, you know that our ancestors of 170,000 years ago to 12,000 years ago depended on cooperation and shared information. They would have been stupid to kill one another or even attempt it. And for the most part, they didn't. Cooperation worked better, and killing someone else just wasn't worth the risk. It's only when population levels rose dramatically and large groups of people occupied relatively small areas did warfare come into fashion (about 10,000 to 5,000 years ago). This post-apocalyptic game simulates a small population and small bands of people, but I digress to a degree.

Of course, I don't know what plan the developers have. I know they've thought about the options they have. They can have a mediocre game that's a moderate finacncial success. That may be all they want out of this game. Or they could fail. Such is life. They might want to make the game as they see fit regardless of consequences (financial and gamewise). That's their option. It's all okay. Obviously, we all want them to make a good game and we all assume they want to make a good game.

A good game doesn't have Unrestricted Open PvP. The game would deteriorate into a gankfest. A good game doesn't allow an ally to kill you without a penalty (The Eternal City just threw you in jail for some hours if you attacked someone in a protected area--and if you killed them without a good reason in another area, your character was perma killed by the developer after you stood trial).

Why do good games have these protection features? Because there will always be some person with his finger up his nose that likes to cause other people misery. I don't know why they do it. Maybe they have a small member, surely they have a small brain with not much thought going on. They just can't help themselves. Oh look, I can kill someone... chaaarge! No mind, plain and simple.

And because good games protect against this type of nonsense (read "non-sense", "no point"), they are more likely to thrive. They may not thrive forever, but they last for years and they do so with relatively large populations. It makes good business sense.

Of course, perhaps some of the developers want to play the game themselves and they prefer Unrestricted Open PvP. Or they have their own vision. That's all okay too.

However, if that's the case, if the developers intend to make this Unrestricted Open PvP with no meaningful PvP and no meaningful consequences for "grief" attacks, then I'd like them to let me know now so I don't waste my time. I'd like to know the plan. That's not much to ask for.

Hate to say this but this sounds similair to what Dawntide is trying to do..