Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 44

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Visitor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Relative to the observer.
    Posts
    34

    The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    After being in the game for a few hours I see that this stage of testing resembles Alpha more than Beta, so if I'm going to test the game for "free" for the next 6 months to a year I'm going to want to play the "finished" product the way "I" want to play it. If I can't, I'd appreciate the developers telling me so I can spend my time differently.

    And how do "I" like to play? I like to play a successful game that has staying power and long term appeal for the "majority" of players. No Unrestricted Open PvP game has yet been successful, and no Unrestricted Open PvP game will ever be successful.

    What do I mean by success? A game can be a financial success and still suck. STO is a prime example of a game that is a huge financial success and is also one of the worst MMOs out there. Why? Cryptic is great at lying and Star Trek fans don't know when to cut their losses. It's not an Unrestriceted Open PvP game, btw.

    EVE-Online (a Semi-Unrestricted Open PvP game) spends a lot on advertizing to make up for the players that leave (and I sold 3 five-year-old accounts so that helps the game have staying power as well). It's a niche game that will fizzle out in two more years. Tredo made a post about it here:

    http://xsyon.com/forums/30-prelude-t...-learned#22947

    and his reference is the following review of EVE by a player:

    http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Mopar63/...hy-EVE-No-More

    I agree with that review 100%.


    Eve is a PvP game where there is Unrestricted Open PvP in most areas (generally speaking). There is safe space and usually people would be foolish to try to kill you there, but they can, so there really is no absolutely safe space (therefore it's an Unrestricted Open PVP game at its core). But EVE safe space was good enough for me. As it is, to get the better ores you have to leave safe space, and when you do, you'd better have an armada. Tredo's link to the review explains it.

    Dark Age of Camelot is, of course (minus the mez spells and the hacks) the best type of PvP game--RvR in a Frontier Zone. That game is still around (since 2001), and for good reason.

    Darkfall has a low population as far as I can see (under 10k players and probably much, much less). I can understand why. Unrestricted Open PvP. While being near your starting area grants you good protection, your newbie fighting areas, where you get your fighting skills up, are often camped by friends and foes alike, usually on the weekends (as I said, it's a low population game for good reason).

    One day I decided to get some mediocre "but for me, expensive" gear and fight the goblins just outside the fort but beyond the range of the towers. Now I had been killed before, but it was by reds and they were enemies (of my race and allies). Meh, okay. No big loss. But this time I paid a pretty penny (for me) for gear. I went to the goblins and was killed by an ally helping his buddy level. I thought it was cheesy, but okay, it happens. I went back and behold, he had taken my crappy but "expensive to me" gear. I asked him why. He said it was for his newbie friend. Mind you, this was an ally (me elf--him dwarf). We bantered back and forth, I didn't whine and laughed about it, and he came into town and made me even better gear. Hey, nice. Great.

    But you know what, apart from the awful grind that DF is, I realized that this would be a common occurrence (minus the nice guy giving me the gear back). This would happen over and over, just mindless griefing for no reason and with no great consequences, so I decided I'd let them grief someone else. It wasn't a rage quit. It was a logical decision not to continue playing a bad game.

    How would you like to go out, get killed, go out, get killed, go out... and so forth? I don't like that. I came to play a reasonable game, not be a punching bag for someone 80 times my level who is too afraid to fight characters his own level. While there are no levels in DF, I'm sure you get my meaning.

    And how do I define Unrestricted Open PvP? It's a game that griefers flock to. It's a game where any player, usually the type that likes to kill for mindless fun (his fun) does exactly that, and suffers no meaningful penalty, if any. In the process he ruins the other player's gaming experience and that player usually quits. That's just bad game design. That's a failure of a game before it even starts.

    How does this relate to Xsyon? Xsyon is a "building" game. People will build structures, roads and so forth. But it will be a low population game for some time. I go to sleep. People in my tribe will go to sleep (irl). How do we defend in an online game when we're asleep? Let's take a look at WURM (I'm currently playing that as well). Crappy animations (if you can call them that) but a reasonable Semi-Open PvP system (as I call it). As you build your town, or whatever you want to call it, you can build towers that spawn powerful guards that defend the town. As you expand, you can build more towers. Now these guards aren't omnipotent. A large enough force can defeat them. But I'm happy that it deters aggression enough to have the enemy think and plan very hard if they want to attack. Notice the words think and plan as opposed to mindless and meaningless. Also, it simulates the innate advantage a defender would have in an area he knows better than the attacker.

    And if you're a student of paleoarchaeology, you know that our ancestors of 170,000 years ago to 12,000 years ago depended on cooperation and shared information. They would have been stupid to kill one another or even attempt it. And for the most part, they didn't. Cooperation worked better, and killing someone else just wasn't worth the risk. It's only when population levels rose dramatically and large groups of people occupied relatively small areas did warfare come into fashion (about 10,000 to 5,000 years ago). This post-apocalyptic game simulates a small population and small bands of people, but I digress to a degree.

    Of course, I don't know what plan the developers have. I know they've thought about the options they have. They can have a mediocre game that's a moderate finacncial success. That may be all they want out of this game. Or they could fail. Such is life. They might want to make the game as they see fit regardless of consequences (financial and gamewise). That's their option. It's all okay. Obviously, we all want them to make a good game and we all assume they want to make a good game.

    A good game doesn't have Unrestricted Open PvP. The game would deteriorate into a gankfest. A good game doesn't allow an ally to kill you without a penalty (The Eternal City just threw you in jail for some hours if you attacked someone in a protected area--and if you killed them without a good reason in another area, your character was perma killed by the developer after you stood trial).

    Why do good games have these protection features? Because there will always be some person with his finger up his nose that likes to cause other people misery. I don't know why they do it. Maybe they have a small member, surely they have a small brain with not much thought going on. They just can't help themselves. Oh look, I can kill someone... chaaarge! No mind, plain and simple.

    And because good games protect against this type of nonsense (read "non-sense", "no point"), they are more likely to thrive. They may not thrive forever, but they last for years and they do so with relatively large populations. It makes good business sense.

    Of course, perhaps some of the developers want to play the game themselves and they prefer Unrestricted Open PvP. Or they have their own vision. That's all okay too.

    However, if that's the case, if the developers intend to make this Unrestricted Open PvP with no meaningful PvP and no meaningful consequences for "grief" attacks, then I'd like them to let me know now so I don't waste my time. I'd like to know the plan. That's not much to ask for.

  2. #2

    Re: The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    Supposedly there is going to be a system implemented where pk'ing is detrimental to the pk'er. I can't remember the slightest details right now...but I'd suggest reading some of the PVP threads

  3. #3
    Visitor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Relative to the observer.
    Posts
    34

    Re: The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    IakXastur wrote:
    Supposedly there is going to be a system implemented where pk'ing is detrimental to the pk'er. I can't remember the slightest details right now...but I'd suggest reading some of the PVP threads
    Yes, I've read those. There appears to be vauge information that suggests what you describe. I'll reread them. It's also possible that the developers consider the PvP options to be "flexible" at this stage of the game, with room to be modified as they see fit.

    I think it's sadly reflective of our culture that we play games where seeking to kill another person (character) is considered "good form" and "part of the game". There are other ways games can simulate dominance and encourage long range thinking and planning as well. The threat of death has more influence many times (irl) than death itself.

    Essentially, I'm hoping this will be more of a thinking game than a "charge!" game. That's not to say armed conflict shouldn't be included. By all means it should be included, as that mirrors the nastier part of human nature (sadly). It just shouldn't be an hourly occurrence. Hopefully the players will be able to police "antisocial" behavior, but there will have to be some game mechanic in place that will give that "meaning". Capturing the criminal and permanently executing the character would be realistic. So would some very lengthy jail time. Or something in between.

    Looking at the "animal" world, no other species fights to the death over mating rights or territory (although chimps have been known to murder, and male lions have a nasty habit of eating their young). That's because fighting to the death is a waste of energy. The victor is known long before any death has to occur, and the vanquished retreats.

  4. #4

    Re:The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    That's alotta words but I generally agree with what you're saying (except the part about EVE fizzling out in 2 years).

    But your subject says "wurm-like PK protection". Are you talking about Wurm's non-PVP server where players can't attack each other at all? I assume you must be because there is no PK protection on Wild. I have a feeling Xsyon will be more like Wild server on Wurm.

  5. #5
    Visitor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Relative to the observer.
    Posts
    34

    Re:The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    Cunk wrote:
    That's alotta words but I generally agree with what you're saying (except the part about EVE fizzling out in 2 years).

    But your subject says "wurm-like PK protection". Are you talking about Wurm's non-PVP server where players can't attack each other at all? I assume you must be because there is no PK protection on Wild. I have a feeling Xsyon will be more like Wild server on Wurm.

    There are a lot more words in a book

    I meant the Wild Servers. Well built core towns are difficult to attack without good coordination. I was just using their towers and guards as an example.

  6. #6

    Re:The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    Blue Pig wrote:
    Cunk wrote:
    That's alotta words but I generally agree with what you're saying (except the part about EVE fizzling out in 2 years).

    But your subject says "wurm-like PK protection". Are you talking about Wurm's non-PVP server where players can't attack each other at all? I assume you must be because there is no PK protection on Wild. I have a feeling Xsyon will be more like Wild server on Wurm.

    There are a lot more words in a book
    Yeah well you're not writing a book.

    I meant the Wild Servers. Well built core towns are difficult to attack without good coordination. I was just using their towers and guards as an example.
    Wurm also has an advantage in that the map is much harder to navigate than Xsyon. Not only is the map (currently) larger in Wurm but the terrain pretty much governs how players travel. So if you want to isolate yourself from the PVP you can do that fairly by choosing your spot wisely.

    Likewise with EVE. EVE is thrown up as an example of how to properly do a mostly unrestricted PVP game but EVE has a number of design features unique to its setting that are key to its ability to do that. You simply can't expect to achieve what EVE has done in a game world where players are free to tread anywhere they like.

    Anyone who's played in 0.0 space in EVE knows what it's like to navigate up the "pipe" to Empire space. You know the gates that hostiles like to camp. You know to set up safe spots that you can warp to if you get into trouble and scanning locations close to but out of sight of gates. You know how to look at the star map and look for red blobs on the "ships destroyed in the last hour" view. You know how to find alternative routes to get around hot spots.

    I don't see a ground-based game, at least one that doesn't place heavy restrictions on where you can go, being able to replicate all that.

  7. #7

    Re:The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    Starting out your post with how you're testing for free and you want it your way or you're out doesn't sit well with me. For one, you don't have to be a tester unless you "want" to be a "free" tester. I for one enjoy it. Secondly, we've talked about this a hundred times in the past. Just use search and try and find anything posted by the user Kunra :P

  8. #8

    Re:The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    All the OP was asking for was information. I agree with him. The situation has changed, the launch got delayed, and early access became a closed beta test. I have no problem with that, but I can understand if someone doesn't want to waste his time on testing a game that at the end could turn out something he doesn't like.

    It would be nice to get some official information about the future plans...otherwise its impossible to avoid the disappointment of a part of the playerbase. In my opinion its not a good idea to hide basic features from the players, and I don't see the reason why can't we know how the game will work after Prelude, especially town attacks and tribe wars.

    For the OP:
    Jordi stated several times that the game won't allow ganking-griefing, and killing a good or neutral player will have severe consequences.
    It would be nice to get more details about these consequences.

  9. #9
    Visitor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Relative to the observer.
    Posts
    34

    Re:The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    Veldern wrote:
    Starting out your post with how you're testing for free and you want it your way or you're out doesn't sit well with me. For one, you don't have to be a tester unless you "want" to be a "free" tester. I for one enjoy it. Secondly, we've talked about this a hundred times in the past. Just use search and try and find anything posted by the user Kunra :P
    Would you rather I lied? Would that have sat better with you? You know what doesn't sit well with me? And remember, you brought it up. 4/15 then 5/15 then 6/15 and now 8/15 and I guarantee it will be moved back again and they have my money. That really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That doesn't sit well with me. You know, people get paid for testing an Alpha game. Where's my weekly or monthly check? Why did I give some people $40 to work for them, probably for six months to a year? You enjoy that? Good. After this you can come and work for free for me for a year or so. How does that sit with you?

    Also, comprehension is just as important as being able to read. Kindly don't warp what I said and imply I'm trying to change the game. I was asking for information.

    You've talked about it a hundred times? Great. Volunteer to organize the forums better because I sure can't find anything except speculation by other people.

    I do thank you for the name. I'll look it up.

  10. #10
    Visitor
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Relative to the observer.
    Posts
    34

    Re:The Case For WURM-like PK Protection

    Cunk wrote:

    Wurm also has an advantage in that the map is much harder to navigate than Xsyon. Not only is the map (currently) larger in Wurm but the terrain pretty much governs how players travel. So if you want to isolate yourself from the PVP you can do that fairly by choosing your spot wisely.
    Food and eating, along with drinking water will play a large part in Xsyon. As you say, the Xsyon map isn't that big yet. However, since this seems like a game that simulates small bands or tribes, it reminds me that pre agrarian hunter-gatherers followed animal migrations and had to move when water dried up. What if (on a larger map) animals migrated and water dried up? Just a thought.

Similar Threads

  1. Website Images and Guild/Fansite packages
    By Kitsume in forum Tribal Discussions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-21-2010, 01:06 PM
  2. Nonchalantbears (?????? ???? ?????)
    By comestible in forum Tribal Discussions
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 04-25-2010, 08:44 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •