Some ideas for combat

[Jadzia]

Kinslayer wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

Kinslayer wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

Derek wrote:

gremrod wrote:

Well remember sprint in game right now eats up stamina. I don't think it drains it fast enough. (Things that need to be balanced)

I think there is nothing wrong with someone trying to flee as long as the chaser has some way of catching the fleer and vise-versa.

In both cases it should involve player skill rather then.. This skills trumps that skill or some random dice roll.....

QFT

Player skills are really good in FPS games. But do they have a place in an MMORPG ? I especially mean the RPG part...in the game our ingame skills represents our abilities, not the real ones. In an MMORPG a 90 years old grandfather can be faster and stronger than a 20 years old man...and thats the point of playing RPG games in my opinion. To do things you can't do in real, to roleplay someone you can't be in real. If its not the ingame skills which determine the result of a fight or escaping then why do we try to get our skills up at all ?

I understand that having player skills involved in the game makes it more enjoyable and challenging for some people, but I'd like to see a better solution for that...something that doesn't destroy the RPG part of the game.

What you suggest is a Runescape style combat system, where you just stand in one spot and let your skills speak for your ability. The combat system in the game is twitch based, which means like it or not, it does come down to the player's ability, in addition to the character's skills. Personally, I like it, or else I'd be playing Runescape still.

Its not only RuneScape style, it works like that in most of the MMORPGs and for a good reason...because they are RPGs. Again, why to train our skills if they doesn't matter anyway ?

I agree that combat needs to be more interesting and challenging, but not in a way which is based on speed...that is always unfair toward people with slower PCs and higher ping rate. It should be more tactical, where you have to know which skill to use in which situation, in what order...something that makes you think and not only smash buttons or mouse.

And about the highlighted part, fleeing should be ingame skills based IMO. If your running skill is higher than the other player's and you aren't overweighted with stuffs than you should be able to run definitely faster.

You should read the replies properly, as has been said, twitch based systems require character skill AND player skill, this is why you train your skills. As mentioned by mrcalhou, higher skills add many different things to your abilities.

A twitch based system is not about speed, its about getting out of the swing range of you opponent, getting around his attack, then moving in and striking and landing your own hit, much like a real life fight. This thread is dedicated to the improvement of the combat system, including slowing it down and making it flow a bit better than it currently does.

I dont think you'll ever see the other kind of combat system in this game, like runescape style, where you just stand in one spot and press buttons, at least I really we hope we wont.

I still thinks so that involving players skills in an MMORPG simply destroys the RPG part. Thats my opinion though, and noone has to agree with it.
I've played a game where crafting was player skill based and it was extremely frustrating, and didn't encourage players to play the game.

I don't want to see RS style combat because its an autoattack one without skills. You hit the enemy, then you wait for your toon to finish it off. There aren't even buttons to smash lol.

Xsyon combat has manual targeting and manual defense tactics, otherwise its skill and statistic based, and I hope it will never have an FPS style combat.

[Shrimps]

You know that WOW has combat where playerskill has no impact on the outcome of a fight right? theres always that game if you don't like the way this turns out.

RPG stands for Role Playing Game, meaning you play a role, it doesnt mean you have to have skills, in fact even an FPS could be considered an RPG since you play the role of that character.

Combat needs to involve playerskill and tactics and character skill. and no it does not need to be realistic, I wish everyone would stop saying that it does and stop referencing to things in other games as realistic. knife and blade fights in reality (not in the movies, those fights are choregraphed) last about a minute. 55 seconds of staring at each other and 5 seconds of action where someone makes a mistake and dies.

either way you definetly need to avoid the darkfall sprint and click method and the typical WOW clone stand and macro method. Gotta find a happy medium.

[Xx1327]

Shrimps wrote:

You know that WOW has combat where playerskill has no impact on the outcome of a fight right? theres always that game if you don't like the way this turns out.

RPG stands for Role Playing Game, meaning you play a role, it doesnt mean you have to have skills, in fact even an FPS could be considered an RPG since you play the role of that character.

Combat needs to involve playerskill and tactics and character skill. and no it does not need to be realistic, I wish everyone would stop saying that it does and stop referencing to things in other games as realistic. knife and blade fights in reality (not in the movies, those fights are choregraphed) last about a minute. 55 seconds of staring at each other and 5 seconds of action where someone makes a mistake and dies.

either way you definetly need to avoid the darkfall sprint and click method and the typical WOW clone stand and macro method. Gotta find a happy medium.

i like this guy

[Kinslayer]

mrcalhou wrote:

Kinslayer, it's my understanding that the runescape-type system was what was originally in the game but that it was changed to a twitch based system after people asked for it. So I don't think that it's going to go back.

I had no idea, thanks for pointing that out to me.

[kiwibird]

So, with combat being a big and important area for a lot of players, it comes to my attention that I will need to take something to the boss and say "This is some combat suggestions".

I won't read this thread in its fullness as its going around in circles of "my idea/s are better" or "I really don't like that". But now is the time to get those ideas and bring them here so I can at least look at the suggestions and write something up for the Dev team.

So lets hear these ideas in a point-by-point lay down. You don't have to like the suggestion suggested and do mark those ones you don't like, but giving me something to take further will be a great help.

Thanks for the replies, KiwiBird

[Venciera]

My personal suggestions are...

- Slow down attack speed

- Charged attacks deal more damage. Quick attacks do very little damage (1 dmg perhaps)

- Directional attacks based on keyboard movement direction

- NEW SUGGESTION: Option to bind 'block' to mouse 1 + 2

- Directional blocking based on keyboard movement direction

- A combo system which allows for special moves

[Kinslayer]

Although I somewhat agree with the dipshit above my post that you could read the thread, for mine, the major points are...

1. More stamina usage per swing/block. Blocks should use less stamina than swings.

2. Charge attacks by holding swings up to a maximum of 1.5secs for maximum damage. (this would of course need balancing)

3. Smoother animations to make the combat appear more fluid.

4. Slower weapon swings.

5. No reticle, and no player selection, no red circle. Damage is dealt to all char's/npc's in the weapon arc.

6. Wife is calling, gotta continue later...

[mrcalhou]

I like most of the things that the other three suggested.

Except for the comment about taking away the reticle. I would prefer an option to toggle the reticle on and off even with the system that detects hits based on the weapons arc.

And I agree that directional based attacks are a must for a game that uses the weapon arc to determine hits. I would let it be able to be an option to have it as either the movement keys or the mouse. It seems some would prefer it on the movement keys and some would like it to be based on mouse movement.

As far as positioning of the stamina bar in combat, I'm of the opinion that more options are better when they have no direct impact on gameplay. That is, I wouldn't want a bar cluttering my screen unless I move it there.

[JCatano]

mrcalhou wrote:

Kinslayer, it's my understanding that the runescape-type system was what was originally in the game but that it was changed to a twitch based system after people asked for it. So I don't think that it's going to go back.

It was always twitch. Combat-mode used to force characters to walk slowly, though. That was changed to the current form.

[Derek]

Reposted for Kiwi
Derek wrote:

Here is a summary of suggestions I think would improve the melee system:

1.-Press and hold attack key should hold the melee swing back and attack only on release. Similarly, press and hold block/parry key to hold that ability until release.

2.-Change stamina bar to drain and replenish at a much faster rate. Have sprinting, melee swings, and blocking draw from this bar. This bar could be repositioned in combat mode to show up to the side of the character vertically and somewhat translucent for easier tracking.

3.-Change hit detection to weapon swing arc (in-game confirmed by Jooky)

4.-Add side, and back dash animations that use the same key as sprinting available in combat mode.

5.-Use mouse gesture before pressing attack key to indicate direction of melee swing (similar to Mount & Blade)
(i.e., Quick movement up and then press attack key = overhead attack.)

6.-Change blocking and parrying to use mouse gesture system mentioned above. As a side note, what is the difference between blocking and parrying? Amount of damage deflected?

7.-Tweak animations to better create illusion of momentum. (i.e., heavier weapons = slower swings and makes character step into swing due to momentum of weapon)

8.-Have heavier blunt melee weapons knock down opponents on overhead swings. (ie, Two-handed bludgeoning weapon will knock your ass silly on the ground for a second when overhead attack succesfully lands.)

9.-Some type of reward for quick successive unblocked/parrying melee hits (ie, special attack animation with increased dmg, stamina drain, very short debuff/stun on opponent).

10.-Reserved for ranged combat system.