Some ideas for combat

[Venciera]

I'm always a fan of combo moves that produce special attacks.

I also love the idea of charged attacks assuming that a fast strike does very very little damage.

One thing that really drove me nuts in Mortal Online was the slow speed at which you blocked. I don't see a problem with fast blocking so long as you can break the block some how. Either by kicking, or a swift blow which would knock the player back.

[Ferakpsi]

I enjoyed ranged combat in Darkfall quite a bit...The melee was a bit clicky but it's better than what we currently have now. Mount and Blade is an interesting choice, and playing "warband" proves that is it capable for use online.

There is no doubt melee will be improved.

Something that a lot of people are overlooking when considering "running away" is that a smart hunter doesn't typically attack unless he knows he has the kill (watching for a time, seeing their prey use up precious energy, singled out, etc). Perhaps we'll just have a lot of harassers though...

[gremrod]

Jadzia wrote:

Derek wrote:

gremrod wrote:

Well remember sprint in game right now eats up stamina. I don't think it drains it fast enough. (Things that need to be balanced)

I think there is nothing wrong with someone trying to flee as long as the chaser has some way of catching the fleer and vise-versa.

In both cases it should involve player skill rather then.. This skills trumps that skill or some random dice roll.....

QFT

Player skills are really good in FPS games. But do they have a place in an MMORPG ? I especially mean the RPG part...in the game our ingame skills represents our abilities, not the real ones. In an MMORPG a 90 years old grandfather can be faster and stronger than a 20 years old man...and thats the point of playing RPG games in my opinion. To do things you can't do in real, to roleplay someone you can't be in real. If its not the ingame skills which determine the result of a fight or escaping then why do we try to get our skills up at all ?

I understand that having player skills involved in the game makes it more enjoyable and challenging for some people, but I'd like to see a better solution for that...something that doesn't destroy the RPG part of the game.

I think this game has plenty RPG aspects. Doesn't mean the combat has to be that way.

IMO

[Jadzia]

Kinslayer wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

Derek wrote:

gremrod wrote:

Well remember sprint in game right now eats up stamina. I don't think it drains it fast enough. (Things that need to be balanced)

I think there is nothing wrong with someone trying to flee as long as the chaser has some way of catching the fleer and vise-versa.

In both cases it should involve player skill rather then.. This skills trumps that skill or some random dice roll.....

QFT

Player skills are really good in FPS games. But do they have a place in an MMORPG ? I especially mean the RPG part...in the game our ingame skills represents our abilities, not the real ones. In an MMORPG a 90 years old grandfather can be faster and stronger than a 20 years old man...and thats the point of playing RPG games in my opinion. To do things you can't do in real, to roleplay someone you can't be in real. If its not the ingame skills which determine the result of a fight or escaping then why do we try to get our skills up at all ?

I understand that having player skills involved in the game makes it more enjoyable and challenging for some people, but I'd like to see a better solution for that...something that doesn't destroy the RPG part of the game.

What you suggest is a Runescape style combat system, where you just stand in one spot and let your skills speak for your ability. The combat system in the game is twitch based, which means like it or not, it does come down to the player's ability, in addition to the character's skills. Personally, I like it, or else I'd be playing Runescape still.

Its not only RuneScape style, it works like that in most of the MMORPGs and for a good reason...because they are RPGs. Again, why to train our skills if they doesn't matter anyway ?

I agree that combat needs to be more interesting and challenging, but not in a way which is based on speed...that is always unfair toward people with slower PCs and higher ping rate. It should be more tactical, where you have to know which skill to use in which situation, in what order...something that makes you think and not only smash buttons or mouse.

And about the highlighted part, fleeing should be ingame skills based IMO. If your running skill is higher than the other player's and you aren't overweighted with stuffs than you should be able to run definitely faster.

[Gamefreak]

People with the better computer gear are always going to 1up the guys with bad computer gear, this is unavoidable. This being said, the game does need some variety in the way combat is performed. Tactics should be a primary focus. I just hope this game isn't like dark fall, where the guys with the highest skills win, period.

[mrcalhou]

Jadzia wrote:

Kinslayer wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

Derek wrote:

gremrod wrote:

Well remember sprint in game right now eats up stamina. I don't think it drains it fast enough. (Things that need to be balanced)

I think there is nothing wrong with someone trying to flee as long as the chaser has some way of catching the fleer and vise-versa.

In both cases it should involve player skill rather then.. This skills trumps that skill or some random dice roll.....

QFT

Player skills are really good in FPS games. But do they have a place in an MMORPG ? I especially mean the RPG part...in the game our ingame skills represents our abilities, not the real ones. In an MMORPG a 90 years old grandfather can be faster and stronger than a 20 years old man...and thats the point of playing RPG games in my opinion. To do things you can't do in real, to roleplay someone you can't be in real. If its not the ingame skills which determine the result of a fight or escaping then why do we try to get our skills up at all ?

I understand that having player skills involved in the game makes it more enjoyable and challenging for some people, but I'd like to see a better solution for that...something that doesn't destroy the RPG part of the game.

What you suggest is a Runescape style combat system, where you just stand in one spot and let your skills speak for your ability. The combat system in the game is twitch based, which means like it or not, it does come down to the player's ability, in addition to the character's skills. Personally, I like it, or else I'd be playing Runescape still.

Its not only RuneScape style, it works like that in most of the MMORPGs and for a good reason...because they are RPGs. Again, why to train our skills if they doesn't matter anyway ?

It's only like that because that's how it was. It doesn't need to be like that be considered an RPG and besides that they way people define RPG is different. I'm apt to consider any game where players play as a set character that advances in power/skill/wealth as the game progresses as an RPG.

But whats to say that our skills don't matter? Having higher skills could give us access to better equipment, new techniques, more damage, more stability for range weapons, less stamina usage for skills, less recovery time for melee swings, faster loading time for range weapons, the ability to add special mods to certain weapons. There are all sorts of things that the skills could open up to the players in this game, or any game that has skills.

The twitch aspect of it doesn't change the rpg part of it. It just adds another element to the way combat is handled. Instead of just standing in one spot staring at your keyboard and pressing buttons, you get to look at your screen and push buttons as you try to get in the best possible position.

[gremrod]

I think the combat camera needs a good look at too.

Hard to explain but it just doesn't feel right when you go into combat with any of the camera views currently in game.

[StrontyDog]

The most important thing to get right first of all with the combat in my opinion is how natural and fluid it feels and looks. Darkfall melee combat isn't ideal and it's very simplistic with simply clicking to swing your weapon but it works. It works because what you see happen on your screen matches what your combat log says happened.

Mortal Online and Fallen Earth both have combat systems where personally I think sound good on paper but fail in reality(at least when I played them). When combat hits register on your target while you see your weapon miss on screen and vice versa it ruins combat completely. You end up with having no other choice but to go for the clickfest method because you are never sure when your hits will land or miss.

If I was to take the first steps towards making the combat system more engaging, realistic and fun I would do the following to begin with.

-Remove the need for your target to be highlighted when the swing is triggered, you don't aim the aiming reticle at someone in melee when you are in 3rd person.
-Allow the hit to be registered at the end of the swing so you can swing, step in and then step out.
-Slow down how fast you swing your weapon to something more natural.


Once you get that much right and the combat is actually fun then you could go to work on the mount & blade aspects to make it into tactical fps combat.

Age of Chivalry which is free on steam once you own a game with a halflife engine is another great example of mount & blade style combat.

http://www.age-of-chivalry.com/

[Kinslayer]

Jadzia wrote:

Kinslayer wrote:

Jadzia wrote:

Derek wrote:

gremrod wrote:

Well remember sprint in game right now eats up stamina. I don't think it drains it fast enough. (Things that need to be balanced)

I think there is nothing wrong with someone trying to flee as long as the chaser has some way of catching the fleer and vise-versa.

In both cases it should involve player skill rather then.. This skills trumps that skill or some random dice roll.....

QFT

Player skills are really good in FPS games. But do they have a place in an MMORPG ? I especially mean the RPG part...in the game our ingame skills represents our abilities, not the real ones. In an MMORPG a 90 years old grandfather can be faster and stronger than a 20 years old man...and thats the point of playing RPG games in my opinion. To do things you can't do in real, to roleplay someone you can't be in real. If its not the ingame skills which determine the result of a fight or escaping then why do we try to get our skills up at all ?

I understand that having player skills involved in the game makes it more enjoyable and challenging for some people, but I'd like to see a better solution for that...something that doesn't destroy the RPG part of the game.

What you suggest is a Runescape style combat system, where you just stand in one spot and let your skills speak for your ability. The combat system in the game is twitch based, which means like it or not, it does come down to the player's ability, in addition to the character's skills. Personally, I like it, or else I'd be playing Runescape still.

Its not only RuneScape style, it works like that in most of the MMORPGs and for a good reason...because they are RPGs. Again, why to train our skills if they doesn't matter anyway ?

I agree that combat needs to be more interesting and challenging, but not in a way which is based on speed...that is always unfair toward people with slower PCs and higher ping rate. It should be more tactical, where you have to know which skill to use in which situation, in what order...something that makes you think and not only smash buttons or mouse.

And about the highlighted part, fleeing should be ingame skills based IMO. If your running skill is higher than the other player's and you aren't overweighted with stuffs than you should be able to run definitely faster.

You should read the replies properly, as has been said, twitch based systems require character skill AND player skill, this is why you train your skills. As mentioned by mrcalhou, higher skills add many different things to your abilities.

A twitch based system is not about speed, its about getting out of the swing range of you opponent, getting around his attack, then moving in and striking and landing your own hit, much like a real life fight. This thread is dedicated to the improvement of the combat system, including slowing it down and making it flow a bit better than it currently does.

I dont think you'll ever see the other kind of combat system in this game, like runescape style, where you just stand in one spot and press buttons, at least I really we hope we wont.

[mrcalhou]

Kinslayer, it's my understanding that the runescape-type system was what was originally in the game but that it was changed to a twitch based system after people asked for it. So I don't think that it's going to go back.