Death

[Chade]

zeph wrote:

Death in every game seems to be a huge issue within a games balance system...

Personally Im a fond believer of perma death... However, I have yet seen a game that actually balanced out perma death within scope of actual skill grind...

If Developers can balance out in any game skill grind, so as not to hinder any kind of labor intensive, repetitious, tedious skill grind... I would like to see a really... really... really... good perma death system implemented...

This would resolve any issue within any game... If you do something wrong or make bad choices no matter of any thoughts, and reasoning in scope by any player there should be consequences of perma death, and restart...

Death in real life tends to make people stop, and think before they make actions, but not always... Ignorance is bliss when it comes to ones own choices, and actions in real life... Should not the same rule set apply within any type of sand boxed style game? (Just food for thought)

In some way I have to agree with you.

The whole conversation is going the right direction.

Offcourse the link posted does intrest me, my biggest concerne was the ghostsystem but valid points are beeing made here.

- permadeath: yes I suggested something like that on these forums before. I think the biggest issue here are the crafters do. I would not like to have to restart the whole craftingprocess if I was a crafter.. It also poses problems with the items you owned. The world will be covered with unaccesable items due to the deaths and the settings of rights on privat.

Possible solution would be: a last will. The inharent (or something like that) will recieve all materials owned. Considering that teatching or something will be in game (i'm not a huge fan of that) you could write all recepies down in a book that goos with the belongings to the new character.

Although I'm aware that permadeath in a skillgame probbenly won't make it I must say that it does have its advantages.

But I unterstand many people will have issues with that.

[mrcalhou]

Permadeath wouldn't work too well in an online game like this. I understand where you are coming from, but there's a psychological aspect about it that I don't think you are considering. In real death IS permanent. In a game death isn't permanent because you can just reroll. You can't ban someone's account when they are killed. That's bad business. It's also bad business because if there was permadeath a lot of people would die and then rage-quit.

There is also anoymity on the internet and a lot of people don't have the same conscience that they'd have in real life. In real life you could murder someone and get away with it, but very few people would be able to do so without feeling guilty about it in some significant form or another. Online there just isn't that. Think about all the trolls. In real life most people are generally pleasent or they at least don't go out of their way to be complete asses, but online there is ass-hattery and douche-baggery all over the place.

Now, of course I'm biased, but I think my idea of equipment and item loss provides a nice balance. It's significant that theresa risk vs. reward system to doing any sort of activity, but not always so bad that you are set back months or years.

I really think that Eve provides a great example of how to design a sandbox type environment.

[zeph]

mrcalhou wrote:

Permadeath wouldn't work too well in an online game like this.

I really think that Eve provides a great example of how to design a sandbox type environment.

I think Eve did use a (form) of perma death not entirely, but was sugar coated with the pod insurance effect... This forced a player to disengage from the heat of the battle, while not being able to take advantage of ingame mechanics to grief or insure victory for a factions through cheesy tactics...

The idea Im attempting to convey is a form of sugar coating; (as in Eve) that can be acceptable by the community while providing fun, and anti griefs... Where as We can have good, open ended tribe battles without the complaining of disadvantages of someone taking advantage of in game mechanics...

One thought in mind which may also work would be a cross breed between Roma Victor, and Ulitma Online... An alternate world or otherwise another level separate from the real in game world where one has to travel for "X" amount of time to get rezzed, and load back into the actual play world, and return back to camp to equip... If we crossed the two game styles together a shadow copy of Xsyon real world (like Ulima)with no player base and only resurrection portals or npcs as in (Roma Victor) so one could not see nor interact with the real world in anyway until actual resurrection...

This would be simple to code... Only problem I can foresee is server space, and that would be on the developers to decide...

This would definitely eliminate any of the problems we could think of while keeping skills, especially for any crafters out there... Even if there was any skill loss penalties maybe make it only combat related...

This was one thing I really hated about Roma Victor.. Crafters were penalized in skill loss on death when you attempted to roll a pure crafter with no fighting skills... Roma Victor was a gank fest against crafters...

[Shrimps]

zeph wrote:

mrcalhou wrote:

Permadeath wouldn't work too well in an online game like this.

I really think that Eve provides a great example of how to design a sandbox type environment.

I think Eve did use a (form) of perma death not entirely, but was sugar coated with the pod insurance effect... This forced a player to disengage from the heat of the battle, while not being able to take advantage of ingame mechanics to grief or insure victory for a factions through cheesy tactics...

The idea Im attempting to convey is a form of sugar coating; (as in Eve) that can be acceptable by the community while providing fun, and anti griefs... Where as We can have good, open ended tribe battles without the complaining of disadvantages of someone taking advantage of in game mechanics...

One thought in mind which may also work would be a cross breed between Roma Victor, and Ulitma Online... An alternate world or otherwise another level separate from the real in game world where one has to travel for "X" amount of time to get rezzed, and load back into the actual play world, and return back to camp to equip... If we crossed the two game styles together a shadow copy of Xsyon real world (like Ulima)with no player base and only resurrection portals or npcs as in (Roma Victor) so one could not see nor interact with the real world in anyway until actual resurrection...

This would be simple to code... Only problem I can foresee is server space, and that would be on the developers to decide...

This would definitely eliminate any of the problems we could think of while keeping skills, especially for any crafters out there... Even if there was any skill loss penalties maybe make it only combat related...

This was one thing I really hated about Roma Victor.. Crafters were penalized in skill loss on death when you attempted to roll a pure crafter with no fighting skills... Roma Victor was a gank fest against crafters...

Not to be picky but your idea sounds pretty much exactly like the death system WOW had last I heard. I'm not so sure it'd be the best system but maybe it could be tweaked. In the end though it'll come down to Whatever other penalties there are that haven't been implemented yet.

[zeph]

prokop15 wrote:

The penalties of death (whatever Xsyon decides those to be when he gets around to coding them) should be enough of a deterrent.

Very true @ (whatever Xsyon decides those to be when he gets around to coding them)

But.................

Not always the case @ should be enough of a deterrent.

Should is a distortion. Its pretty delusional to think one has to count, and/or rely on shoulds... I've had my share of shoulds of supporting failed games in the past... When I feel the need to should, I will look else where... Wait this is why I am here Looking

Guess this is why we have a forum to respectably discuss "Game Balance" so that Xsyon can read through on customer feed back, and make appropriate actions if needed from a developers point of view... Of which I believe we are currently discussing in hope that Our concerns on balance may be heard to some degree...

I think everyone who has posted has had valid thoughts, and comments on the issue... Were all offering feed back,ideas, and concern nothing more...

[Airbornenik]

I hope the re-spawning where you die is not permanent, regardless of good or evil.

[Foreseer]

Personally think the game should move to a more "Ultima Online" Death system. The walk of shame. Although there will be no npc humans in the game that doesn't stop them from forcing players to walk to their tribal stone or some religious area to be resurrected. After which causing players who die within their tribal territory to be required to either wait or walk to an allied tribes temple.

[Hyip]

Well here is something. I can't tell you how many times people have come up to me swinging and missing and then me killing them. But since I hit them first and killed them even though they came after me first. I am gonna get a bad allignment. So how do you fix that?

[Shrimps]

I have an idea it might not completly fix the issue but here it is.

After you have reduced someones health to zero they are knocked out instead of dead and you could have the option of doing a type of Predator style finishing move on them to kill them. Ripping out their spine, dagger to the heart, etc.

If you are Evil or at war with their tribe this would result in positive alignment or tribe faction, and if you are good or neutral and not at war with them this would result in bad alignment or faction.

Then have a system in place that if you are repeatedly knocking them unconcious in a short amount of time attempting to grief them you would lose alignment.

Not perfect I know but it's a start

[Trekkan]

Could be that you can respawn at your tribe totem (Meaning you have to walk there, not teleport).

Also maybe at any tribe's totem that you are allied with.

Again, you'd still have to walk there, no teleporting. So you couldn't use it to fast travel anywhere. It would also encourage alliances and whatnot.

Eventually I assume that some sort of resurrection will be added into the game, be it a healing skill or something. That would encourage grouping and add another skill that is useful. If you're not grouping, there's always the walk back to friendly lands and their totem.

If you're not in a tribe, maybe the starting areas could work as res points as well. With a minimum of 5 minutes death or something before you can resurrect at them. This would deter people from camping in the areas causing issues, etc.