PVP rules

[JCatano]

Xsyon wrote:

I'm taking all of this into consideration. I'll make a few quick points.

- Players will experience a bit of stat / skill loss upon any death. This is the main consequence for dying. I could add some minor item loss when killed by a creature as well, but this is not worked out. There will be damage to your armor's duration.

- The reasoning behind allowing players to spawn near their current location is for players that want to explore the world or visit tribes rather than join them. (Tribes will be able to allow outsiders to use their facilities and totems). The option to respawn at your home location will most likely be added.

- I see suggestions to remove additional consequences for evil players, but not to exchange them with other consquences. I am open to suggestions on this. Playing evil should be a challenge. It should not be the easiest road for players to take.

Skill loss... Thumbs down.

Potentially losing your gear if you can't make it back to your gravestone before it's looted is a stiff enough penalty, already. Skill loss is just something that will become tedious, especially if you don't have a mechanic that controls loss when being killed multiple times in a short period. Losing gear and being sent back to your bind spot is a nice balance of risk v. reward and being able to gear up and get back into the action without saying: "Well #&%@... I need to grind these skills back" beforehand. Durability loss on items that aren't looted, since full loot isn't always the case, is a good idea, too.

As much as you Darkfall haters may want to think that Xsyon is a totally different game; it isn't. They are both very similar at the root, and there is nothing wrong with taking the good parts from DF (or any game) and using them. Also, many other games use the same back-to-bind-after-death mechanic. They use it for a reason... It works well.

Forehead slapper there. No risk for exploring? Might as well let us teleport to any spot we want. As I've posted in the Darkfall forums many times... There is absolutely no reason to make a large, interesting world if you're going to let us port everywhere (DF portal chambers). While spawning in your death spot isn't necessarily the same thing, it certainly relates to getting anywhere without much risk at all. Without risk... Not much reward with regard to a feeling of accomplishment.

Where is the challenge when aligned as good/neutral?

So...

Die in PvE or PvP? Get sent to your bind no matter what your alignment is. Some items still on you because of different looting rules? They take a durability hit. If you want to check to see if your grave has been looted? Run back and look.

Or... Keep respawn the way it is, so we can use good/neutral alts to spy since they won't be sent to bind after death, use alts as banks to regear main after a death and being looted (hidden alt or log off alt in area your main will be in, then log it back in to regear), and I'm sure there are some other exploits I haven't thought of. I won't even mention PvP encounters. That's a mess anyone can easily foresee, especially when talking about large-scale engagements.

---

If you want a higher penalty for evil players, implement something like SWG's Battle Fatigue and Wound mechanic. In SWG, BF would accumulate slowly over combat situations. You became less effective as the value raised. Wounds would also accumulate slowly and lowered your max value in <insert stat>. To heal BF, you had to listen to/watch an Entertainer. To heal wounds, you either had to stay in a campsite (slow heal) or have a Medic/Doctor heal them.

Implement something like that and make it affect evil players more than others.

Kinslayer's idea for slower stat regain would work just as well and not require a new mechanic.

[mrcalhou]

I agree with Jcatano.

Don't be different for the sake of being different. Please look at the way Eve's PvP and death mechanics work. They are really good models to incorporate because there is a nice balance of risk vs. reward.

[Xsyon]

Please look at the way Eve's PvP and death mechanics work.

How do these work? I haven't played Eve.

I am definitely open to good ideas from other games. I just haven't played everything. I'm too busy working.

[REVKhA]

You can't translate eve's systems in to a game with magic, religion and tribes. Who would sell the clone ? The tribe shaman spreading pixie dust on your head at each spawn ?

Too many rules = very bad, keep it simple and balanced for everyone.
Perm stat loss = very bad
Respawn on death site = very bad

[Jadzia]

Xsyon wrote:

Please look at the way Eve's PvP and death mechanics work.

How do these work? I haven't played Eve.

I am definitely open to good ideas from other games. I just haven't played everything. I'm too busy working.

Eve's mechanics is not a good comparison, since it hasn't got open world PvP, it has huge high security areas (safe zones). In high sec space players can play the game for years without ever meeting an outlaw ship. If an outlaw ship enters the high sec space it will be insta killed by the NPC guards.
The main disadvantage of being an outlaw in Eve is being locked out of high sec space, so longer travel time, difficulties with trading and no security.

Eve's mechanism is based on insurance, clones, NPC guards...things that Xsyon hasn't got and probably will never have.

[mrcalhou]

REVKhA wrote:

You can't translate eve's systems in to a game with magic, religion and tribes. Who would sell the clone ? The tribe shaman spreading pixie dust on your head at each spawn ?

Too many rules = very bad, keep it simple and balanced for everyone.
Perm stat loss = very bad
Respawn on death site = very bad

I don't know how the resurrection system works but from a lore perspective you could pay an offering to some diety to make sure that when you are resurrected you are resurrected with all of your skills or something.

Xsyon wrote:

How do these work? I haven't played Eve.

I am definitely open to good ideas from other games. I just haven't played everything. I'm too busy working.

Eve has a progressive system of relative safe zones. The safety ratings vary from 0.0-1.0. 0.5-1.0 are safe zones where there is some sort of retaliation from an NPC policing system but where there can still be random PvP. Also, if Corporations (Eve's equivlent of tribes) are at war with each other then they can attack each other freely in these areas. The npcs enemies in these areas are weak and don't provide very much money or resources. Same thing with minerals. Only common materials are found in these areas.

0.0-0.4 is where players can pvp and pirate without fear of NPC retaliation and these areas provide rare minerals and tougher npc enemies with better rewards.

Also, skilling in Eve takes forever if you want to do everything, but training a role doesn't take that long and skills provide a small statistical benefit, but open up roles the player can occupy as well as how specalized they can get with it. With the more specalized players being able to do more things within that role.

The player occupies the role of a person that pilots or commands a ship. When the ship they are in gets destroyed then the player has to buy a new ship and different sorts of weapon systems as well as other types of things that can be outfited. Some fittings are destroyed and some can be recovered either by the player that gets destroyed or by someone passing through or by someone that might have killed them.

This provides the basis of economy of the game since things have to be replaced so often. It also makes the player have to weigh the risks vs. rewards of any situation and what they use. A common saying in Eve is: "Never go out in anything you can't afford to lose." Which means that the expensive, but powerful ships and fittings aren't always used even though a player can use them. It might seem foolish, but having a massive turnover in player items is really, really good for crafters because then the economy can't stagnate which is why I suggested having large hits to item durability and even having things being able to be destroyed when you are killed in combat.

Personally, I don't mind having free-for-all pvp, but a large number of people do and despite how much some people clamor about how having safezones dumbs the game down, it really does a lot for attracting players to the game. More so than not having FFA will drive away the so-called "hardcore" players.

Also when your ship gets destroyed in Eve you have to go back to a place that has your docked ships and items. Which can be spread throughout multiple areas; however, when your ship is destroyed you get ejcted as a defenseless pod that is used to travel back. You can self-destruct which puts you back to the station that has your clone, which would need to be re-purchased. And Players can target you and destroy it if they choose to. NPC enemies don't attack a players pod. I like the way this works because it means you have to go back to your base of operations when you die. It also means that you aren't going to get stuck in an area that you can't get out of. Almost every game uses this system because it works really well.

[Kinslayer]

JCatano wrote:

Xsyon wrote:

I'm taking all of this into consideration. I'll make a few quick points.

- Players will experience a bit of stat / skill loss upon any death. This is the main consequence for dying. I could add some minor item loss when killed by a creature as well, but this is not worked out. There will be damage to your armor's duration.

- The reasoning behind allowing players to spawn near their current location is for players that want to explore the world or visit tribes rather than join them. (Tribes will be able to allow outsiders to use their facilities and totems). The option to respawn at your home location will most likely be added.

- I see suggestions to remove additional consequences for evil players, but not to exchange them with other consquences. I am open to suggestions on this. Playing evil should be a challenge. It should not be the easiest road for players to take.

Skill loss... Thumbs down.

Potentially losing your gear if you can't make it back to your gravestone before it's looted is a stiff enough penalty, already. Skill loss is just something that will become tedious, especially if you don't have a mechanic that controls loss when being killed multiple times in a short period. Losing gear and being sent back to your bind spot is a nice balance of risk v. reward and being able to gear up and get back into the action without saying: "Well #&%@... I need to grind these skills back" beforehand. Durability loss on items that aren't looted, since full loot isn't always the case, is a good idea, too.

As much as you Darkfall haters may want to think that Xsyon is a totally different game; it isn't. They are both very similar at the root, and there is nothing wrong with taking the good parts from DF (or any game) and using them. Also, many other games use the same back-to-bind-after-death mechanic. They use it for a reason... It works well.

Forehead slapper there. No risk for exploring? Might as well let us teleport to any spot we want. As I've posted in the Darkfall forums many times... There is absolutely no reason to make a large, interesting world if you're going to let us port everywhere (DF portal chambers). While spawning in your death spot isn't necessarily the same thing, it certainly relates to getting anywhere without much risk at all. Without risk... Not much reward with regard to a feeling of accomplishment.

Where is the challenge when aligned as good/neutral?

So...

Die in PvE or PvP? Get sent to your bind no matter what your alignment is. Some items still on you because of different looting rules? They take a durability hit. If you want to check to see if your grave has been looted? Run back and look.

Or... Keep respawn the way it is, so we can use good/neutral alts to spy since they won't be sent to bind after death, use alts as banks to regear main after a death and being looted (hidden alt or log off alt in area your main will be in, then log it back in to regear), and I'm sure there are some other exploits I haven't thought of. I won't even mention PvP encounters. That's a mess anyone can easily foresee, especially when talking about large-scale engagements.

---

If you want a higher penalty for evil players, implement something like SWG's Battle Fatigue and Wound mechanic. In SWG, BF would accumulate slowly over combat situations. You became less effective as the value raised. Wounds would also accumulate slowly and lowered your max value in <insert stat>. To heal BF, you had to listen to/watch an Entertainer. To heal wounds, you either had to stay in a campsite (slow heal) or have a Medic/Doctor heal them.

Implement something like that and make it affect evil players more than others.

Kinslayer's idea for slower stat regain would work just as well and not require a new mechanic.

This!

Also, I would add some respawn delay, something like what Zeph was pointing out in the other Death discussion in game balance. Something like RV had with Elysium, or have a copy of the game world for dead people only, and they have to run back to a respawn spot or something along those lines.

[JCatano]

Kinslayer wrote:
This!

Also, I would add some respawn delay, something like what Zeph was pointing out in the other Death discussion in game balance. Something like RV had with Elysium, or have a copy of the game world for dead people only, and they have to run back to a respawn spot or something along those lines.

I respawn timer isn't needed if you spawn with 1 HP/1 Stamina/etc.

I'll have to vote a big "no" on the ghost-run. First time I died in MO, the ghost-run to the priest was incredibly annoying.

Keep it simple: Die in PvE or PvP, spawn at bind, evil players regain stats more slowly.

Keeps the world big (instead of travel/spawn/die/respawn/rinse and repeat), has risk v. reward and accountability, stops exploits from the mechanic, and has a tougher penalty on evil players.

[Shrimps]

Permanent stat loss is a good idea. Being Evil should not at all be an easy task. Otherwise we end up with a system like Darkfall where being evil has no real effect on anything and everyone is KOS to everyone else because there is no reason not to kill everyone you see.

Without some form of hard coded penalties for being evil the game will probably degrade into a pkfest pretty quickly. The idea to have players police themselves is all well and good in theory but in reality it doesn't work. Without restrictions to being evil then it is not only easier but more profitable and more effective than being neutral or good.

There needs to be severe penalties or it will be 10% of the population being good/neutral and 90% evil instead of the original plan of it being the opposite.

Temporary stat loss is not a good enough penalty for death especially if it's a matter of minutes. 10 minute stat loss? ok I'll go sort my armor or make a sandwich, it's not an inconvinience at al. Maybe if we were talking 2-3 weeks temporary loss to recover stats from a death then that would be more on track. But permenant stat loss would be the better option.

[Kinslayer]

Shrimps wrote:

Permanent stat loss is a good idea. Being Evil should not at all be an easy task. Otherwise we end up with a system like Darkfall where being evil has no real effect on anything and everyone is KOS to everyone else because there is no reason not to kill everyone you see.

Without some form of hard coded penalties for being evil the game will probably degrade into a pkfest pretty quickly. The idea to have players police themselves is all well and good in theory but in reality it doesn't work. Without restrictions to being evil then it is not only easier but more profitable and more effective than being neutral or good.

There needs to be severe penalties or it will be 10% of the population being good/neutral and 90% evil instead of the original plan of it being the opposite.

Temporary stat loss is not a good enough penalty for death especially if it's a matter of minutes. 10 minute stat loss? ok I'll go sort my armor or make a sandwich, it's not an inconvinience at al. Maybe if we were talking 2-3 weeks temporary loss to recover stats from a death then that would be more on track. But permenant stat loss would be the better option.

Isn't permanent stat loss just that, permanent, no grinding it back? Temporary stat loss to me, doesnt mean your stats just come back by themselves, you have to work and grind them back yourself. Have them raise by collecting wood, or stone, that way the crafters then get help by having resources collected for them too. But if evil, you have to do 5 times the amount of work to grind your stats back than a good/neutral player would have to.

@Jcatano, youre right, ghost runs suck, I didnt like MO's system either. The system in RV wasnt bad though, where you went to an afterlife, and had to find the guy to spawn back at your spawn spot. He was always in the same spot, so all it really did was add a delay to your respawn. Although, if you spawn back with 1hp, that should be good enough, I agree.