Improve Masonry/Architect Fix/Woodcraft Rename

[trenixdecease]

Venciera wrote:

Right now our tribal chief is an architect and its a full time job for him. I don't know if your issue is that they don't do enough skill grinding, or they don't move enough mats, but I do appreciate a good settlement designer.

The problem is that woodcrafters and masons are worthless because the architect basically takes their job away from them. Setting up plans is one thing, but to built the finishing products using the mats that masons and woodcrafters make, is unreal and unfair.

Venciera wrote:

I do believe the original plan was to allow all tribal members to help add to, and assemble structures. So this whole discussion might be moot.

I really hope so, because at this moment, I feel like all other crafts are just grinders. I actually don't necessarily agree that "all" crafts should be able to assemble structures. Masons and woodcrafters are supposed to be the only builders (for now at least). To allow all crafts to contribute in assembling structures would only further degrade the builder professions.

prokop15 wrote:

A ) This isn't the real world. Also, none of the structures in game are really something that would be designed... The purpose of the role of Architect in this game is to give the control of placing buildings to one individual, so you don't have 10 people in the clan placing buildings all willy nilly.

I understand the role of the architect. The thing is, the architect shouldn't be the one who's "building" a tribe for us, but rather planning the tribe for us. As you mentioned before, he uses his intelligence rather than skill and labor. I'm not asking for masons or woodcrafters to set plans, but they should be the ones finishing planned products.

[mrcalhou]

If, over enough time like in Eve, everyone could learn all the different crafts, and "Architect" was a tribal position that designated what could be placed where (and how it was built if the building system is that deep), then this wouldn't be such an issue, right?

[trenixdecease]

prokop15 wrote:

Listen, I know you're a mason in the real world (from time to time)and for that you have some sort of sense of pride attached to this in-game tradeskill. However, the fucking mechanics of the game have nothing to do with the honour of your noble profession.

Architects are responsible for the planning and creation of structures in this game. The current state of the game doesn't have nearly enough depth or population to be forcing players to choose a role that only allows them to put up plans.

But, you gotta understand that because architects actually "build" their plans. Professions like a mason (especially), become nothing more than grinders. This also includes woodcrafters. To be able to even plan a structure, is something with much power. To be able to then build it after another person's grind, is just unbelievable. Who would honestly want to be somebody's grinder? There needs to be some balance with this.

mrcalhou wrote:

If, over enough time like in Eve, everyone could learn all the different crafts, and "Architect" was a tribal position that designated what could be placed where (and how it was built if the building system is that deep), then this wouldn't be such an issue, right?

I guess you're right, if we're all able to be architects, then this wouldn't be a problem. However, you do realize that an architect is going to be the number one requirement for all builder professions, right? That's exactly why I'm trying to balance this issue...

[mrcalhou]

trenixdecease wrote:

mrcalhou wrote:

If, over enough time like in Eve, everyone could learn all the different crafts, and "Architect" was a tribal position that designated what could be placed where (and how it was built if the building system is that deep), then this wouldn't be such an issue, right?

I guess you're right, if we're all able to be architects, then this wouldn't be a problem. However, you do realize that an architect is going to be the number one requirement for all builder professions, right? That's exactly why I'm trying to balance this issue...

I think you missed what I was getting at. Instead of having architect be a skill set, it would be a position that is held by a member of a tribe. Then that tribe member sets up a plan for what should be built and where to put it. Then whoever has the appropriate skills can build that structure.

[trenixdecease]

mrcalhou wrote:

I think you missed what I was getting at. Instead of having architect be a skill set, it would be a position that is held by a member of a tribe. Then that tribe member sets up a plan for what should be built and where to put it. Then whoever has the appropriate skills can build that structure.

That sounds interesting. Not sure how that would work out, but it may be a solution. Being an architect is a skill and therefore as you progress you get more structures available to you. So I'm not sure how that could fit into a role rather than a skill.

I still think an architect should be a skill, but I believe it requires more limits so other crafts wouldn't be suffering with all the grinding. You need a sense of progression after you grind, otherwise there is no reason for being a mason or woodcrafter. Sure, I could get all the resources, but afterwords, I want to be the one who builds the structure that I grinded for. Pretty much, a mason and a woodcrafter have no "real" finished products.

[mrcalhou]

What about having architects be in the role of researching blueprints/plans for things that could be given to tribe members or sold to non-tribe members or something? Have the main skill be called Architect, then have sub skills for researching buildings, walls, etc. If they have an open skill system so that players aren't going to be limited to JUST being an architect then it'd work pretty well like that. Then the tribe planner would be in charge of setting where buildings could be placed.

[Kinslayer]

I just skimmed the 2nd half of this thread, cos, well, Im too damned lazy to read all that.

But IMHO, architect is the wrong name for the skill, it should be called Builder. Architects are designers, they design buildings, they certainly dont build them. A mason should be responsible for adding the bricks to structures, carpenters should be responsible for adding the timber product to the structures. Make it a team effort to build something.

So a "builder" (not architect) would place the building, a mason would add the bricks, a carpenter the wood. Perhaps we could even introduce new skills such as concreting, thatching (or roofing), tiling perhaps?

I think construction just needs to be a little more complex, with more accuracy in the naming of skills.

[Darenkel]

Kinslayer wrote:

I just skimmed the 2nd half of this thread, cos, well, Im too damned lazy to read all that.

But IMHO, architect is the wrong name for the skill, it should be called Builder. Architects are designers, they design buildings, they certainly dont build them. A mason should be responsible for adding the bricks to structures, carpenters should be responsible for adding the timber product to the structures. Make it a team effort to build something.

So a "builder" (not architect) would place the building, a mason would add the bricks, a carpenter the wood. Perhaps we could even introduce new skills such as concreting, thatching (or roofing), tiling perhaps?

I think construction just needs to be a little more complex, with more accuracy in the naming of skills.

Architect should be renamed to Civil Engineer, imho. As a Civil Engineer, they would be responsible for doing the overall layout of a city. The act of giving a 'Civil Engineer' the materials, so they may be added to the structures, could be considered as a sort of inspection process, for those materials. Also, by finishing the building, it merely cuts out the actual build-time of said structure, thus giving the other professions time to work on materials for the next building, down the line.

As far as Woodcraft is concerned, I think a more appropriate name would be Carpenter, which imply, allowing them to expand into making furniture, signs, and other non-buildings, in addition to building materials.

Masonry is great, in it's own way. However, they should be able to make earthenware (or clay for potters) in addition to bricks, mortar, and lime. If they are supposed to be a support craft, I'd say, make more crafts for them to support.

Reference Material:
Civil Engineer - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_engineer
Carpenter - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpenter
Masonry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry

[trenixdecease]

mrcalhou wrote:

What about having architects be in the role of researching blueprints/plans for things that could be given to tribe members or sold to non-tribe members or something? Have the main skill be called Architect, then have sub skills for researching buildings, walls, etc. If they have an open skill system so that players aren't going to be limited to JUST being an architect then it'd work pretty well like that. Then the tribe planner would be in charge of setting where buildings could be placed.

This sort of combines with my original idea, the idea of architects having to create plans with paper and writing utensils. Perhaps they could trade these plans to other players where they will be able to place them where they like. However, they would be restricted since they would need the proper profession in order to finish the given structure.

So basically, if a mason will want to create a wall. He would have to go to the architect for a plan. Whoever has the plan could then place the structure on the ground. Therefore, masons will require architects, and architects wont be doing the masons or woodcraft's job.

[Kinslayer]

I just disagree with having so many support crafts. If they are going to be support crafts, perhaps they should be sub-skills of the main construction skill then.