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Thread: Needed Tweak

  1. #11
    No, I don't think simply throwing more animals and adding skill training will simply solve the system. The problem it would seem is that it is not immediately apparent that you need to work with other people. This could very easily be a single player survival game of some type.

    You would think that it would be an easy conclusion to make that you have to work with other people, but all other signs in this game can easily lead to the opposite conclusion. The landscape is barren, there is nothing around you, and very likely not to be people around. There is nothing to points towards civilization, and likely very little civilization. Unless you know who you will play with, and already part of a tribe, there are no facilities to help you find players to play with. And since the game is designed to be played cooperatively solo players starting out are really in a pretty steep slump. If your lucky someone comes along and helps you out, or someone else comes along and quickly dispatches you.

  2. #12
    Xsyon Citizen Gamefreak's Avatar
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    The problem right now is that the game is indeed a grind, but it is a boring grind. I hope that it's much less so at release.

    Then again, I'm not sure that there's a grind that's not boring. So, getting rid of the grind all at once would be nice.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamefreak View Post
    The problem right now is that the game is indeed a grind, but it is a boring grind. I hope that it's much less so at release.

    Then again, I'm not sure that there's a grind that's not boring. So, getting rid of the grind all at once would be nice.
    TBH, I've thought about this...as it seems every game has a grind.

    If people just played the game, the repetition of doing things would improve your toon with skills or money.....but people are obsessed with being the master "Pwnzer" so instead of just playing...they grind their toon as hard and fast as possible. That in turn, forces others to grind away at skills etc, just to remain competitive.

    So...in essence, no matter what type of leveling system is in place....the hardcore players, will always force the grind. The only way to eliminate it, is to eliminate the ability of toons to improve themselves or crafted materials. That in itself would almost kill a game, as people want to see their time devoted to playing a game...get some sort of reward. If they saw a 1st day player, be as good as a several month veteran, then they'd say "WTF"....why bother.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacon View Post
    TBH, I've thought about this...as it seems every game has a grind.

    If people just played the game, the repetition of doing things would improve your toon with skills or money.....but people are obsessed with being the master "Pwnzer" so instead of just playing...they grind their toon as hard and fast as possible. That in turn, forces others to grind away at skills etc, just to remain competitive.

    So...in essence, no matter what type of leveling system is in place....the hardcore players, will always force the grind. The only way to eliminate it, is to eliminate the ability of toons to improve themselves or crafted materials. That in itself would almost kill a game, as people want to see their time devoted to playing a game...get some sort of reward. If they saw a 1st day player, be as good as a several month veteran, then they'd say "WTF"....why bother.
    Where this fails is the devs job to make the game fun, and NOT force or even people to want to grind at all. You play the game and you level up while having fun. If you are forced to grind for any reason (whether you believe you should or not) is where the devs failed. If you are leveling through normal place instead of clicking brick making 10000 times, is where the game doesnt seem like there is a grind. Even though BOTH can be considered a grind.

    Its like this. Say you want to be a better football player. Well there could be 2 ways to be better. 1) You could play the game over and over which is fun, to get better. or 2) You could hit the gym, and through the ball into a net, or run passing routes over and over, which is less fun and a grind.
    See how there are 2 ways to go about it? Well if you force people to do repeated tasks that are boring thats a grind. If you have them doing things that are fun to level, even though its really the same thing many times. Then its not a grind.

    People dont mind leveling to be equal to a vet, but what they do mind if the grind in which its done.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Where this fails is the devs job to make the game fun, and NOT force or even people to want to grind at all. You play the game and you level up while having fun. If you are forced to grind for any reason (whether you believe you should or not) is where the devs failed. If you are leveling through normal place instead of clicking brick making 10000 times, is where the game doesnt seem like there is a grind. Even though BOTH can be considered a grind.

    Its like this. Say you want to be a better football player. Well there could be 2 ways to be better. 1) You could play the game over and over which is fun, to get better. or 2) You could hit the gym, and through the ball into a net, or run passing routes over and over, which is less fun and a grind.
    See how there are 2 ways to go about it? Well if you force people to do repeated tasks that are boring thats a grind. If you have them doing things that are fun to level, even though its really the same thing many times. Then its not a grind.

    People dont mind leveling to be equal to a vet, but what they do mind if the grind in which its done.

    both ways involve repetition.......so "Pwnzers" will do it non-stop, foregoing fun, until they reach maximum obtainable level. The play and level type will then be required to reciprocate to be able to compete. It's not the task that is unpleasant...its the repitition. In your example...your repitition is in "playing the game" continuously or "working out in gym" continuously....either scenario requires an effort of the "have to be best" types to reach top dog status...and forcing casuals to do the same. The players with mindset that has to be better than anyone else, set aside anything and everything else, save for reaching that top spot, even to the point of always "working out in gym" while never really "playing the game".


    EDIT: to address point of having fun...I do have fun playing the game (Xsyon), but then I realize, if the grinder happens by, I'm toast. For me, the journey is what is enjoyable, not the final destination. But no-one will have fun if constantly beset by maxed out grinders.

  6. #16
    My point is that if there is no gym to workout in, then the grinders would have to PLAY football to grind.
    But like this game they allow people to grind by putting in a system that is boring as sin. If you were to play the game (not making 10,000 bricks over and over) then there wouldnt be a way for the grinders to grind other than doing fun actions.

    I dont think anyone thinks that making 10,000 bricks is fun. Maybe taking those bricks and building a wall, and making a stove etc is fun, but making bricks is NOT fun. Remove the option to level of making 10,000 bricks, and put in a system that makes it more fun. Like a system that say click this button and it starts making bricks while you do something else like make mortar or gather to harder resources, or plan how the stove is going to fit etc. But clicking 10,000x4 times to make the bricks for a wall is boring and shouldnt be put into the game. That's a grind.

    Just like leveling a toon in another game. If you were to kill a level 1 mob 1million times you will level. But its much more fun to level doing party raids, and dungeons and quests etc. Which is why killing 1million mobs isnt a good way to level, thus the grinders are forced to play. Now they might cut some corners while playing, maybe they dont take the quests that are not good time/exp. Or maybe they kill the same boss mob 10x times because its better than doing these other quests over here. But thats a far cry from killing the same monsters 10,000 times and never leaving that area.

  7. #17
    so what would be your solution for this game, be exact as possible. What can make it difficult for all day grinders to level, and yet let casual players remain competitive?

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacon View Post
    so what would be your solution for this game, be exact as possible. What can make it difficult for all day grinders to level, and yet let casual players remain competitive?
    I posted this under the crafting changes before. But there are many things to change to stop grinding and make it more fun. Simple things as much as eating while walking.

    For crafting, what should be done is changing it so you feel like your actions effect the outcome, and something where you dont have to click over and over for the same things. Like making bricks (yes I know I keep using it but its clearly needed for revamp) you click 4 times to make a brick. OVER AND OVER AND OVER same 4 clicks without change. You need 1000s of bricks maybe even 10s of 1000s. No way to speed it up, even after skill level 35 or so you dont even fail anymore. I dont see the fun in there for that kind of grinding. Plus it does give you skill just doing it over and over (I would hope it would after something so boring as that).

    I can be detailed but its better to show you a change in 1 thing which applies to many things.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Deacon View Post
    so what would be your solution for this game, be exact as possible. What can make it difficult for all day grinders to level, and yet let casual players remain competitive?
    (IMO) There is no way to make anything competitive for all, Unless you nurf it down so much that no matter how much time one person can put into it, It does not reward that person any more than it does for the person that only puts in a small amount of time.

    In this game, Much Time is greater than Less Time
    In games with cash shops, Much Money is greater than Less Money
    Unless you use a gaint NURF hammer, And no one wants that!

  10. #20
    Xsyon Citizen Gamefreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aliksteel View Post
    (IMO) There is no way to make anything competitive for all, Unless you nurf it down so much that no matter how much time one person can put into it, It does not reward that person any more than it does for the person that only puts in a small amount of time.

    In this game, Much Time is greater than Less Time
    In games with cash shops, Much Money is greater than Less Money
    Unless you use a gaint NURF hammer, And no one wants that!
    I don't want the game to have new players on the same level as veteran players as soon as they start up the game, as this is what you mean by the nerf hammer. In contrast, I don't want to spend three days clicking the same button to make bricks to grind up masonry skill.

    Normally MMORPGs ease the pain of grinds by putting out quests that immerse the player in the game, and at the same time level them more than just slaughtering the same monster repeatedly. The whole point of a game is to relieve stress and have fun. I'm not going to judge anyone if they think making thousands of bricks, wooden posts, baskets and or other materials is fun. It is, however, incredibly boring for just about everyone else.

    If this immersion cannot be provided, then this game will have great difficulties holding on it it's player base. It will likely follow the same fate as mortal online; a slow death. The whole point of a MMORPG is to immerse the player in the game, and by doing repetitive tasks all day long, it feels more like a second job than immersion.

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