Macro poll. Yes or No?

[Gamefreak]

While that's an ideal situation, he would have to ban half his player base on the first or second day of prelude.

He can't afford to do that.

[FPrime]

Delete character isn't the same as ban account.

Do you really think half of the playerbase is going to macro? Is that how you justify doing it yourself?

I think 0 tolerance with a char deletion is a good idea. It doesn't hurt subscriber numbers directly (although some might quit over it) but just makes the cheater start over. That's a fitting punishment.

[sionide]

I agree. Have a zero tolerance and stand by it. The reason DFO got out of hand was because the devs were wishy-washy about it, until almost all the population was doing it in one form or the other.

[FabricSoftener]

I agree. Have a zero tolerance and stand by it. The reason DFO got out of hand was because the devs were wishy-washy about it, until almost all the population was doing it in one form or the other.

in all fairness their policy was faily clear for those people who read them, its just that they never really enforced it because either they didnt have the time and methods to hunt people down or there was just so many people doing it they would have banned more than 1/2 the server. I think its more the first issue, priorities.

I think it would be hysterical in this game if people found out that swming skill actually dosent affect anything but only after getting it to 50 after swiming in the lake all month

[Derek]

Delete character isn't the same as ban account.

Do you really think half of the playerbase is going to macro? Is that how you justify doing it yourself?

I think 0 tolerance with a char deletion is a good idea. It doesn't hurt subscriber numbers directly (although some might quit over it) but just makes the cheater start over. That's a fitting punishment.

The problem with that stance is that proof of macroing is not always black and white. There are shades of grey. How do you tell if a guy is using a fishing macro for instance? Yea, the GM can send a tell and if there is no response then delete the character? What if that person has his UI hidden or responds to the tell because he is macroing but not afk? There are so many other scenerios.

Banning and GM policing is a poor way to deal with flawed game mechanics. Repetitive boring actions will always drive the player base to find ways to macro that action for the sake of sanity and avoiding carpal tunnel.

[sionide]

in all fairness their policy was faily clear for those people who read them, its just that they never really enforced it because either they didnt have the time and methods to hunt people down or there was just so many people doing it they would have banned more than 1/2 the server. I think its more the first issue, priorities.

I think it would be hysterical in this game if people found out that swming skill actually dosent affect anything but only after getting it to 50 after swiming in the lake all month

Yes, true about the policy but most conversations went like this:

FORUM:
A: Yo, can we macro?
Mod: No, read the policy
A: What about G15 keyboards it's a feature of my keyboard like typing?
Mod: Well...umm..not sure.
A: Ok, so there isn't a policy about that?
Mod: I guess not. But you have to be the one pressing the keys

Boom, attended macroing...which easily spills to full macroing.

[Derek]

Yes, true about the policy but most conversations went like this:

FORUM:
A: Yo, can we macro?
Mod: No, read the policy
A: What about G15 keyboards it's a feature of my keyboard like typing?
Mod: Well...umm..not sure.
A: Ok, so there isn't a policy about that?
Mod: I guess not. But you have to be the one pressing the keys

Boom, attended macroing...which easily spills to full macroing.

Agreed, shades of gray.

Again, you don't fix flawed game mechanics by using the ban hammer.

To be clear, I am definitely not pro-macro. I am in support of non-repetitive leveling/skilling up mechanics which I won't get into on this thread.

[FPrime]

Agreed, shades of gray.

Again, you don't fix flawed game mechanics by using the ban hammer.

To be clear, I am definitely not pro-macro. I am in support of non-repetitive leveling/skilling up mechanics which I won't get into on this thread.

Well until someone invents the perfect game with no flaws at all I prefer to see a flawed (but still fun and worthwhile) game protected by removing the cheaters. And to be clear I will say again, banning an account is not the same as deleting a character. The cheater can be given another chance to take the rules seriously, while still losing their ill-gotten gains.

The problem is that you can implement all the non-repetitive mechanics you want and players that want to get ahead will find a way to reduce the action to something repetitive that can be macro'd even if it means they are horribly inefficient because going 24/7 makes up for it. The mechanisms to the macros are very sophisticated and there is not much they can't automate. There has to be active policing and enforcement. Only the fear of losing what they are cheating to gain will stop them.

I know that it can be difficult to detect macros or to be sure that someone is macroing. I don't expect 100% success rate for that. Err on the side of caution and keep watching suspects. The kind of macroing that is problematic will be noticeable. Policing is not futile just because you can't catch every single instance of macroing, as long as you get the ones that cause a problem. I guess I am really talking about 0 tolerance for cheating taking into consideration that macroing is the most accessible method of cheating. If someone is macroing in a way that is indistinguishable from normal gameplay then the point is moot because nobody will notice. If nobody notices the act or the consequence I personally don't care if they are not caught. But if the no-macro stance is made clear in the rules, it will be their risk to take if they want to try to find where the boundary of cheating is noticeable.

The 0 tolerance I am talking about is not allowing the people who are caught to get away with it. The hidden UI or "I don't like to chat" excuse is an old one. It's easily gotten around: make the gm communication come in a pop-up window. Human interaction as a test of macroing should be only one of many ways used to detect it. Most importantly, the gms must stick to their guns and don't let players talk their way out of a punishment. If a few people quit because they got caught cheating and actually faced a punishment, good riddance!

There is no need to worry about innocent people facing persecution if the detecting process is reasonable and not hair-triggered or totally automated. Maybe some non-cheaters would quit because a good friend of theirs quit after being caught cheating, but the game will survive without them. Permitting cheating because "enforcement is too hard" will do much more harm to the game.

[Derek]

The mechanisms to the macros are very sophisticated and there is not much they can't automate.

We are talking about macroing relatively simple tasks not writing bots for combat and such. Anyway the kind of skill up systems I've eluded to, such as offline progression, are immune to macros.

There has to be active policing and enforcement.

You would rather have the majority of a GM's time spent investigating macro abuse reports instead of something like GM controlled NPC invasions?

Only the fear of losing what they are cheating to gain will stop them.

You are being naive.

I know that it can be difficult to detect macros or to be sure that someone is macroing. I don't expect 100% success rate for that. Err on the side of caution and keep watching suspects.

Again, tie up the majority of a GM's time for this sort of thing?

The kind of macroing that is problematic will be noticeable.

You are being naive again. In Darkfall, players found ways to glitch inside of walls and under the world to macro skills 24/7 without any risk. That is just one example.

Policing is not futile just because you can't catch every single instance of macroing, as long as you get the ones that cause a problem.

Policing alone should not be the manner in which to combat macroing. History has proven this fails horribly.

If someone is macroing in a way that is indistinguishable from normal gameplay then the point is moot because nobody will notice.

The point is not moot. Players who macro will gain a huge competitive advantage.

If nobody notices the act or the consequence I personally don't care if they are not caught.

Really? So you don't mind other players gaining a huge competitive advantage over you?

There is no need to worry about innocent people facing persecution if the detecting process is reasonable and not hair-triggered or totally automated.

You're being naive again.

The only mechanism currently in the game which will help combat macros is the soft cap on skills. Some people argue stamina use will help but this is just an obstacle that can be overcome with a rest/eat script. There are also rumors that a macro detection system is in place that stops skill gain but I have not seen any evidence of it.

This is my last post on this subject because it has been beaten to death and keeps going in circles.

[Gamefreak]

Can you please quote when and where I said that I macro?

Enlighten me please. I voted that they should be allowed, because there is no point in having a law you are incapable of enforcing. Also, arguing that people won't macro in a mmo is the same thing as arguing that bodybuilders don't use steroids in competition. If people have the availability to have an easy way out, they will take it. Psychology dictates this.