If you cant lose your Totem....what's the Endgame?

[NexAnima]

That's the point of the tribe/clan system tho.

Situation: bad guys in the trash pile.

/t bad guys - looks like 2 or 3- in the trash pile. make them go away please
/t [uberleetpvpguy1] sweet on it
/t [uberleetpvpguy2] dude wait for me i need some stam
/t [therealdealuberleetdude] uh sorry guys, they were just wannabe ganks...killed em already...

now if you're trying to play the game solo...obviously you've got a potential problem (unless you are, in fact the uberl337 craftingpvpwunderkid)...but that's a road you've chosen.

But the reality of the situation if left unchecked:

Situation: go out to scavenge

/t bag guys - looks like 2 or 3 - they're naked
/t tribesmen- on the way
/t tribesmeN- OHSHI HERE COMES ANOTHER 7 ALSO NAKID
ZERGRUSH!!!1ONE
/y zerg- KEKEKEKEKEKE
rinse and repeat...

[kleetus]

I just wanna know when I can go VC on the PvPers asses? and by VC I mean Viet Cong.. I want pungee sticks.. I want gigantic log traps that spring out and impale you on a 30 foot sharpened log, I want tunnels... I want it all.. and the ability to make animals out of scrap and set them loose to do my bidding..

also it would be cool if I could enslave pvpers and gankers who come on my territory, then make them do gather quests to win their freedom..

and a fish made from bacon while im asking for stuff.

[Marcus]

Shadowbane released as a top 10 pc game in 2003...was trying to google the number, but havent quite tracked it down, but i want to say box saless were in the neighborhood of 300K copies within the first week of release. THis was good, but also horribly horribly bad since the servers/code couldnt handle the level of people that descended upon the game. From a box sale perspective the game was a hit. Free to play occurred in 2006, after the TOO expansion (puke). And the game went on to live 3 more years closing in July of 2009.

Defining the 'who' this game caters to is actually an interesting discussion unto itself...simultaneously a fundamental strength and weakness of the game.
Crafter: IT CATERS TO ME!! Look at all the crafting stuff!!
Builder: NO TO ME!! Terraforming! Walls! I can build a kingdom!!
Carebear: *sigh* cant we all just get along? I want to explore and smell the flowers, tame bambi and live a life of peaceful introspection...mmmmmmmm...The combat system is barely developed, so this game can't be about pvp.
PVPr: Uh, i'm here to kill you. FFA World, promised tribal warfare, look at all these weapon and armor options...hmm, we can build walls, that must mean we will be able to rip them down. Sweet. it's obvious this game was built for me.

We're all seeing what we want to see in the sandbox...which is fantastic.

Hopefull the devs have the skill and energy to find a balance to cater to all the audience that is projecting themselves into the game...We'll see.

as a side note, from a market standpoint...the sbemu project at 1,623 'active' members registered on their forums (over 12k total, but bots and all that so that isn't a real number). For every one of those active members, there are probably 5-7 that they have access to (guilds, etc.)/ influence with. Thats a captive audience that currently has nothing worthwhile/satisfactory to play who is WAITING for the 'game' to be made. No, those are not WoW numbers, this is not wow.

.

I completley agree with you here.

It really seems that a lot of people read/hear, full loot PvP and come in with the preconcieved notion they can do anything and everything they want, because its a sandbox, and fail to look at the features section of this website.

Since the release of Shadowbane, "sandbox" has become a "niche'" market, perhaps in part because of said preconcieved notions, i don't know. Someone really need to step outside the (sand)box, and see where they can take this "niche'" market, because honestly, i don't think i can stand another themepark MMO, or "play to crush" sandbox game. I've been through enough of them.

As you alluded to, these guys seem to be trying to balance it out, and I honestly hope it works for them.

[NexAnima]

I completley agree with you here.

It really seems that a lot of people read/hear, full loot PvP and come in with the preconcieved notion they can do anything and everything they want, because its a sandbox, and fail to look at the features section of this website.

Since the release of Shadowbane, "sandbox" has become a "niche'" market, perhaps in part because of said preconcieved notions, i don't know. Someone really need to step outside the (sand)box, and see where they can take this "niche'" market, because honestly, i don't think i can stand another themepark MMO, or "play to crush" sandbox game. I've been through enough of them.

As you alluded to, these guys seem to be trying to balance it out, and I honestly hope it works for them.

All you need to do is look to early UO (ultima online), It was great till they made it "safer". Pks use to sit on the edge of the brit brige and the newbs would stand on the other side debating if they should try to run through them. Then the Anti-Pks would catch wind of this and rush forth and battle the Pks. All was right in the world, and everyone had fun.

[Marcus]

All you need to do is look to early UO (ultima online), It was great till they made it "safer". Pks use to sit on the edge of the brit brige and the newbs would stand on the other side debating if they should try to run through them. Then the Anti-Pks would catch wind of this and rush forth and battle the Pks. All was right in the world, and everyone had fun.

I had an anti-pk in UO. I don't really remember it being that cut and dry, especially for the guys on the bridge debating......

[NexAnima]

I had an anti-pk in UO. I don't really remember it being that cut and dry, especially for the guys on the bridge debating......

I do, since I was one of them once. Was it fun being the newb? Well, yea it was, it was a rush getting past the Pks by sneaking by when the Antis came. And then I got smarter and found other ways around it. Thats the thing about memories, they are subjective...

[coca]

I guess I don't understand the question. You have terraforming so you can alter the terrain to your eventual tactical advantage. You have terraforming so you can raise defensive berms and build moats - along with other, less combat-oriented things. And if, as an aggressor, it doesn't cost you something to overcome all the defender's terraforming efforts - things like having to build and then drag huge, vulnerable siege engines and scaling ladders and moat bridging equipment and so forth to the enemy's gates and then defend it while you're trying to get it into operation, and bring superior numbers to overcome the tactical advantage fixed fortifications are supposed to provide (that's sort of why you build them) - then yes, I would agree that terraforming is indeed pointless.

That's what I mean by 'make it cost the aggressor as much effort to knock something down as it originally took the defender to build it'.

None of your post matters if pvp isn't a HUGE factor in the game.... you say you don't want hardcore pvp.. but without it why would you be building up defenses and stratigic things? I am confused..

[coca]

Actually, yes - I do know how much some dedicated PvP-ers - usually the more mature ones - appreciate dedicated crafters. (I'm one of the humble drones in a construction corporation in EVE. We feed the war machine and are universally loved and appreciated by our alliance's combat fleets for our efforts. I get to do what I like to do, and as a result they get to do what they like to do. Win/win all around.)

Also, as I sort of hinted in my prior post, the more mature crafters usually appreciate that kind of mature PvP to the same extent. Building something with no purpose other than to build it, and with no risk to it once it's made, inevitably becomes a dull, empty exercise in rote repetition. I'm no more interested in that than I am in paying a monthly subscription fee so I can build sand castles for mindless bullies to destroy.

The problem - and I'm sorry, but all the rationalizations and posturing aside this is the simple truth - is that not all PvP-ers are mature enough to appreciate the symbiotic relationship you and I recognize. They are in it for the quick gratification of 'knocking shit down cuz I can.' That's a dead end. Eventually the crafters come to realize they're paying a monthly subscription so some asshat can get his jollies by being an asshat and there goes not only a subscription, but the contribution that 'carebear' is bringing to the game in the form of something more than 'all war, all the time.' This being so, the trick for the developers is to create a game mechanic that nurtures the kind of mature PvP you and I both want, while at the same time restraining the immature punks.

Or we "PK's" are out risking our reputation.. gear and time to kill fockers, ultimately to have you crafters be able to make things you couldn't make without us supplying the items to make it with. Because you either didn't have the skill, the ability to get it , or you would rather sit in your city then the stuff yourself.


You can look at it either way.. I'm just playing devils advocate. This type of game needs people to rely on each other for things.. it plays to people strength and weaknesses and to their gaming desires. Its sand box.. thats how it is meant to be.

The reason the pvpers are being loud and talking alot is because so far we haven't gotten any attention... the crafting system looks somewhat stable.. alot of options and focus has gone into it so far.. we want to see if we have a place in this game or not and we want to make sure we are represented and our ideas are taken into consideration when the code is writen.

[coca]

I just wanna know when I can go VC on the PvPers asses? and by VC I mean Viet Cong.. I want pungee sticks.. I want gigantic log traps that spring out and impale you on a 30 foot sharpened log, I want tunnels... I want it all.. and the ability to make animals out of scrap and set them loose to do my bidding..

also it would be cool if I could enslave pvpers and gankers who come on my territory, then make them do gather quests to win their freedom..

and a fish made from bacon while im asking for stuff.

I'm good with anything that has bacon involved. The tunnels and traps would be pretty damn cool too.

[Gradishar]

Finally

Do you have any idea how much pvp groups LOVE dedicated craft people? City builders? Farmers? And i'm not talking about as prey, i'm talking about on their own side. If you ENJOY building cities and walls and terraforming and making the ultimate indestructible, unseigable fortress...that means we can leave it to you and go out and kill stuff.

One of the misconceptions in this game, already, is the pvp and the craft elements are mutually exclusively...Your pvp tribes that are in it (hopefully) for the tribal warfare element will be just as skilled and focused on the craft element as anyone else in the game. It brings a competetive edge to have the absolute best stuff (once 'stuff' actually works ) possible.

You are absolutely correct Dubs. I am not a good pvper...frankly, I suck. However, I do get off on building fortresses and anticipating offensive/defensive tactics. In SB I built over 30 cities over a roughly 8 year period. Some of my designs were crap...some were works of art...some were incredibly effective...some were like swiss cheese. I enjoyed building each and every one of them. To me, the building of a fortress was more fun than the actual pvp in defending or tearing one down. Now, if my designs were never tested...if there was never an opportunity to see if that double wall vs triple wall..or inset cross or triple gatehouse..was effective or not...I would have lost an incredible opportunity as a city designer and as a gamer. If aesthetics is all this game is about...making pretty villages that look like they would be defensible...but are never actually ever attacked...than this is clearly not the game for me. Sims can certainly be entertaining games....just as an etchasketch can be a lot of fun for a while...but creating a fortress on an etchasketch ...to display for anyone who wanders by...would be a tragic and disappointing missed opportunity for Xyson IMHO.