If you cant lose your Totem....what's the Endgame?

[Dubanka]

And Shadowbane went free to play in what? 3 years? closed down 3 years later? What was the height of the playerbase for it? i honestly don't know.

Look I'm not saying that destroyable assets are a bad thing, and i like the idea, to an extent, but using Shadowbane as an example, seems somewhat silly to me. Can they take what Shadowbane started and work with it? sure. But its sorta obvious thats not exactly the road you want to go down, especially with a game so deep in crafting as this one. Shadowbane was created for PvPers, that was obvious, this game seems to cater to something different.
.....
Destroyable assets sounds great to me, I just don't think that most of the people that want it, are going to get it in the aspect they wish.....

justt my opinion.

Shadowbane released as a top 10 pc game in 2003...was trying to google the number, but havent quite tracked it down, but i want to say box saless were in the neighborhood of 300K copies within the first week of release. THis was good, but also horribly horribly bad since the servers/code couldnt handle the level of people that descended upon the game. From a box sale perspective the game was a hit. Free to play occurred in 2006, after the TOO expansion (puke). And the game went on to live 3 more years closing in July of 2009.

Defining the 'who' this game caters to is actually an interesting discussion unto itself...simultaneously a fundamental strength and weakness of the game.
Crafter: IT CATERS TO ME!! Look at all the crafting stuff!!
Builder: NO TO ME!! Terraforming! Walls! I can build a kingdom!!
Carebear: *sigh* cant we all just get along? I want to explore and smell the flowers, tame bambi and live a life of peaceful introspection...mmmmmmmm...The combat system is barely developed, so this game can't be about pvp.
PVPr: Uh, i'm here to kill you. FFA World, promised tribal warfare, look at all these weapon and armor options...hmm, we can build walls, that must mean we will be able to rip them down. Sweet. it's obvious this game was built for me.

We're all seeing what we want to see in the sandbox...which is fantastic.

Hopefull the devs have the skill and energy to find a balance to cater to all the audience that is projecting themselves into the game...We'll see.

as a side note, from a market standpoint...the sbemu project at 1,623 'active' members registered on their forums (over 12k total, but bots and all that so that isn't a real number). For every one of those active members, there are probably 5-7 that they have access to (guilds, etc.)/ influence with. Thats a captive audience that currently has nothing worthwhile/satisfactory to play who is WAITING for the 'game' to be made. No, those are not WoW numbers, this is not wow.

Finally

...personally I have no interest in PvP. I'm not good at it. I don't get much enjoyment out of it. I'd rather build than destroy.

Do you have any idea how much pvp groups LOVE dedicated craft people? City builders? Farmers? And i'm not talking about as prey, i'm talking about on their own side. If you ENJOY building cities and walls and terraforming and making the ultimate indestructible, unseigable fortress...that means we can leave it to you and go out and kill stuff.

One of the misconceptions in this game, already, is the pvp and the craft elements are mutually exclusively...Your pvp tribes that are in it (hopefully) for the tribal warfare element will be just as skilled and focused on the craft element as anyone else in the game. It brings a competetive edge to have the absolute best stuff (once 'stuff' actually works ) possible.

You want all the raw materials you can get your hands on? You want tell the L337s what to do? get on board, and tell them you need x, y, and z ingredients in whatever quantities and THEN you'll be able to make them the legendary armor of uberdom. It's even better if ingredient z is only found on somebody elses land. You get to craft to your heart's content, pvprs get to kill people and take their stuff, win win. Hopefully the end result is that someone gets mad enough to come try to burn down your uber fortress (then you can laugh at their feeble skills from atop the walls you built).

If done right it will will all tie seamlessly together.

[Bridger]

... Finally

Do you have any idea how much pvp groups LOVE dedicated craft people? City builders? Farmers? And i'm not talking about as prey, i'm talking about on their own side. If you ENJOY building cities and walls and terraforming and making the ultimate indestructible, unseigable fortress...that means we can leave it to you and go out and kill stuff ...

Actually, yes - I do know how much some dedicated PvP-ers - usually the more mature ones - appreciate dedicated crafters. (I'm one of the humble drones in a construction corporation in EVE. We feed the war machine and are universally loved and appreciated by our alliance's combat fleets for our efforts. I get to do what I like to do, and as a result they get to do what they like to do. Win/win all around.)

Also, as I sort of hinted in my prior post, the more mature crafters usually appreciate that kind of mature PvP to the same extent. Building something with no purpose other than to build it, and with no risk to it once it's made, inevitably becomes a dull, empty exercise in rote repetition. I'm no more interested in that than I am in paying a monthly subscription fee so I can build sand castles for mindless bullies to destroy.

The problem - and I'm sorry, but all the rationalizations and posturing aside this is the simple truth - is that not all PvP-ers are mature enough to appreciate the symbiotic relationship you and I recognize. They are in it for the quick gratification of 'knocking shit down cuz I can.' That's a dead end. Eventually the crafters come to realize they're paying a monthly subscription so some asshat can get his jollies by being an asshat and there goes not only a subscription, but the contribution that 'carebear' is bringing to the game in the form of something more than 'all war, all the time.' This being so, the trick for the developers is to create a game mechanic that nurtures the kind of mature PvP you and I both want, while at the same time restraining the immature punks.

[Dubanka]

The problem - and I'm sorry, but all the rationalizations and posturing aside this is the simple truth - is that not all PvP-ers are mature enough to appreciate the symbiotic relationship you and I recognize. They are in it for the quick gratification of 'knocking shit down cuz I can.' That's a dead end. Eventually the crafters come to realize they're paying a monthly subscription so some asshat can get his jollies by being an asshat and there goes not only a subscription, but the contribution that 'carebear' is bringing to the game in the form of something more than 'all war, all the time.' This being so, the trick for the developers is to create a game mechanic that nurtures the kind of mature PvP you and I both want, while at the same time restraining the immature punks.

I agree with you. Fortunately, at least in my experience, this 'gank window' is usually only prevalent at the very outset of a game (when throwaway startup toons are all equally powerful). As soon as we step past the immediate settlement issue, what SHOULD happen, is we will move into an environment of who can craft and build the fastest, and then make that translate into territorial / pvp dominance. HOPEFULLY the gear equation will be 'fixed' to some degree so that will come to pass.

If we remain in a Nekkid+PO weapon = best solution, we've obviously got a huge gameplay problem (to the point, a large portion of my group is really 'meh' about the game right now because of that massive problem...there is no point to doing anything if the best solution is what you were borne with).

So, if they get their basic mechanics that are currently in game fixed (not even talking about fixing the wonky combat system), the ubergank issue should be but an annoyance (heyena's and jackals picking off the unwary/unprepared). I don't want the devs restraining them. I'd prefer to have the tools to do it myself...the only thing the devs need to do is make their systems work

[Bridger]

Dubanka,

Indeed, I think you and I are reading from the same page. One point though: "Hyenas and jackals picking off the unwary/unprepared" - provisionally yes, dependent upon just how prevalent the problem is. If I get ganked every time I step outside the walls by a pack of nekkid slap fighters, nope. Not interested. If, on the other hand, I get complacent to the point that every once in a while I get successfully mugged on the highway by a hairy barbarian... 'Note to self: hire some dependable mercenaries for the next trade caravan.'

[Dubanka]

Dubanka,

Indeed, I think you and I are reading from the same page. One point though: "Hyenas and jackals picking off the unwary/unprepared" - provisionally yes, dependent upon just how prevalent the problem is. If I get ganked every time I step outside the walls by a pack of nekkid slap fighters, nope. Not interested. If, on the other hand, I get complacent to the point that every once in a while I get successfully mugged on the highway by a hairy barbarian... 'Note to self: hire some dependable mercenaries for the next trade caravan.'

That's the point of the tribe/clan system tho.

Situation: bad guys in the trash pile.

/t bad guys - looks like 2 or 3- in the trash pile. make them go away please
/t [uberleetpvpguy1] sweet on it
/t [uberleetpvpguy2] dude wait for me i need some stam
/t [therealdealuberleetdude] uh sorry guys, they were just wannabe ganks...killed em already...

now if you're trying to play the game solo...obviously you've got a potential problem (unless you are, in fact the uberl337 craftingpvpwunderkid)...but that's a road you've chosen.

[NexAnima]

That's the point of the tribe/clan system tho.

Situation: bad guys in the trash pile.

/t bad guys - looks like 2 or 3- in the trash pile. make them go away please
/t [uberleetpvpguy1] sweet on it
/t [uberleetpvpguy2] dude wait for me i need some stam
/t [therealdealuberleetdude] uh sorry guys, they were just wannabe ganks...killed em already...

now if you're trying to play the game solo...obviously you've got a potential problem (unless you are, in fact the uberl337 craftingpvpwunderkid)...but that's a road you've chosen.

But the reality of the situation if left unchecked:

Situation: go out to scavenge

/t bag guys - looks like 2 or 3 - they're naked
/t tribesmen- on the way
/t tribesmeN- OHSHI HERE COMES ANOTHER 7 ALSO NAKID
ZERGRUSH!!!1ONE
/y zerg- KEKEKEKEKEKE
rinse and repeat...

[kleetus]

I just wanna know when I can go VC on the PvPers asses? and by VC I mean Viet Cong.. I want pungee sticks.. I want gigantic log traps that spring out and impale you on a 30 foot sharpened log, I want tunnels... I want it all.. and the ability to make animals out of scrap and set them loose to do my bidding..

also it would be cool if I could enslave pvpers and gankers who come on my territory, then make them do gather quests to win their freedom..

and a fish made from bacon while im asking for stuff.

[coca]

I just wanna know when I can go VC on the PvPers asses? and by VC I mean Viet Cong.. I want pungee sticks.. I want gigantic log traps that spring out and impale you on a 30 foot sharpened log, I want tunnels... I want it all.. and the ability to make animals out of scrap and set them loose to do my bidding..

also it would be cool if I could enslave pvpers and gankers who come on my territory, then make them do gather quests to win their freedom..

and a fish made from bacon while im asking for stuff.

I'm good with anything that has bacon involved. The tunnels and traps would be pretty damn cool too.

[ifireallymust]

I just wanna know when I can go VC on the PvPers asses? and by VC I mean Viet Cong.. I want pungee sticks.. I want gigantic log traps that spring out and impale you on a 30 foot sharpened log, I want tunnels... I want it all.. and the ability to make animals out of scrap and set them loose to do my bidding..

also it would be cool if I could enslave pvpers and gankers who come on my territory, then make them do gather quests to win their freedom..

and a fish made from bacon while im asking for stuff.

<3

This puts the whole public humiliation in stocks idea to shame. And now I want to see a pker impaled on a 30ft sharpened log.

[coca]

Actually, yes - I do know how much some dedicated PvP-ers - usually the more mature ones - appreciate dedicated crafters. (I'm one of the humble drones in a construction corporation in EVE. We feed the war machine and are universally loved and appreciated by our alliance's combat fleets for our efforts. I get to do what I like to do, and as a result they get to do what they like to do. Win/win all around.)

Also, as I sort of hinted in my prior post, the more mature crafters usually appreciate that kind of mature PvP to the same extent. Building something with no purpose other than to build it, and with no risk to it once it's made, inevitably becomes a dull, empty exercise in rote repetition. I'm no more interested in that than I am in paying a monthly subscription fee so I can build sand castles for mindless bullies to destroy.

The problem - and I'm sorry, but all the rationalizations and posturing aside this is the simple truth - is that not all PvP-ers are mature enough to appreciate the symbiotic relationship you and I recognize. They are in it for the quick gratification of 'knocking shit down cuz I can.' That's a dead end. Eventually the crafters come to realize they're paying a monthly subscription so some asshat can get his jollies by being an asshat and there goes not only a subscription, but the contribution that 'carebear' is bringing to the game in the form of something more than 'all war, all the time.' This being so, the trick for the developers is to create a game mechanic that nurtures the kind of mature PvP you and I both want, while at the same time restraining the immature punks.

Or we "PK's" are out risking our reputation.. gear and time to kill fockers, ultimately to have you crafters be able to make things you couldn't make without us supplying the items to make it with. Because you either didn't have the skill, the ability to get it , or you would rather sit in your city then the stuff yourself.


You can look at it either way.. I'm just playing devils advocate. This type of game needs people to rely on each other for things.. it plays to people strength and weaknesses and to their gaming desires. Its sand box.. thats how it is meant to be.

The reason the pvpers are being loud and talking alot is because so far we haven't gotten any attention... the crafting system looks somewhat stable.. alot of options and focus has gone into it so far.. we want to see if we have a place in this game or not and we want to make sure we are represented and our ideas are taken into consideration when the code is writen.