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  1. #11
    Xsyon Citizen
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Hobart, Tasmania
    Posts
    39
    I think the most interesting question is; why did they put dollars and pennies (and bottle lids) into the game to begin with?

    Surely the placement of these is a social experiment?

  2. #12
    Yes use bottle caps as coins, then i will be wealthy

  3. #13
    Its surely a failed experiment though. There is nothing to back these currencies so no one will accept them. But if they allowed the creation of tribal currencies I would start releasing my own item back currency onto the market tonight. With a game focusing on giving all the power to the players instead of NPCs, player backed currencies would be a unique, logical, and highly interesting way to do things. I'm really, really, excited about the possibilities of this idea.

  4. #14
    of course money doesnt have any in game use, remember money in real life doesnt have a use either. apart from toilet paper i guess. it is simply the meaning that we give money in the real world that gives it its power, and that is why the economy is a huge mysterious ever evolving dynamic cultural trade system. i think seeing what place money has on xsyon will turn out to be very interesting.

    in the history of mankind trading resources only got us so far - economy is in a big way responsible for our worldwide development =)

  5. #15
    I would rather trade than have an economy. IMO its more flexible

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Andius View Post
    Because this is really interesting. The idea of tribes having the ability to create their own currencies. Its so realistic... it would be an amazing experiment in real world economics. Its possibilities like this that make me willing to suffer through this lag.
    Yeah.... lets trade nails and grasspants on the stockexchange in irl ^^... Sounds like a pretty bad idea dude

  7. #17
    Money DOES have meaning though. The way paper money started out were certificates entitling you to however much of a currency of real worth. Mainly gold. So when I would trade you a piece of paper currency it would mean, you can take this piece of paper to whoever issued it, and they will give you that much gold. Likewise our own currency is, or at least was backed in gold originally:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._States_dollar

    So why would we accept dollars knowing that the United States no longer exists, is no longer backing these notes, and that dollars are produced by randomly scavenging around, and have no real value in themselves?

    What is REALISTIC about what I want to do is that tribes are the new governments. They are the only holders of power, the only law, the only ones who can give a currency value in this game. If they could print their own money they could do EXACTLY what the original makers of paper currency did. I could release a currency of my own and say. "If you bring this currency back to me, it is backed in various items of real worth like leather, fabric, nails, etc. Give me the note and I'll give you its value in real items." What gives that currency advantage over the actual items themselves, is it is light, easy to carry in large quantities, and has obvious value.

    Why is this such a big deal? Well because as the system stands. If I want to give you something of value, you either need to directly need it, or go out and find someone who needs the exact item you were paid with. Where as a currency has a huge advantage in that once its circulation gets wide enough, people will accept it as payment for any item, because they know they can go and trade it to someone else who will accept it. You may not actually need any of the items backing my currency, or whatever tribes currency, but if you know all your neighbors or some very powerful tribes will accept that currency in exchange for items you do need, then it is very useful.

    Obviously that gives currency a greater use than the barter system in itself but now I want you to consider some community events things that can enhance people's game experience:

    Bounty hunting and mercenary contracts
    Lotteries and raffles
    Tournaments and contests

    Are you going to go and custom make a bunch of items the winner will want? What is the price you put on someone's head going to be measured with? Are you going to accept any random item as entry into the raffle?

    In every other game the currency has value because you can use it to buy things. Items from NPCs, player owned housing, skills, armor repairs, etc. It has real value. Here EVERYTHING is backed by the players. Why not give the players control of the printing presses, and what kind of currencies they want to use?

    Added after 13 minutes:

    Quote Originally Posted by XeoStyle View Post
    Yeah.... lets trade nails and grasspants on the stockexchange in irl ^^... Sounds like a pretty bad idea dude
    I didn't say current world economics I said real world economics. But I'm not saying items like the items in this game have real world value. In the real world I would back a currency in silver and/or gold. Those items don't exist/wouldn't have the same value as they do in real life in Xsyon so in Xsyon you would have to back it with other things.

    What does make it an amazing experiment in real world economics both past and current is how the tribes will be able to make their own currency like a real world government. They will have control of the printing press and have to decide how to use it. Its like shoving a ton of little tiny governments all on the land surrounding one big lake. Which currencies will rise to the top? Which will fail? Will tribes back all their currency in items or will they just make more currency without backing it with anything? Will they honor their promises they make, or will they build up a huge reserve and then dump the currency altogether. Will tribes come together to back a single currency like the Xsyon version of the Euro. Will one tribes currency be accepted almost everywhere like the US dollar?

    Of course things will be different because this is a game, and games are different from real life, but it will still be an interesting experiment that could help yield some answers about real world economics.

  8. #18
    Money is the accounting of an incomplete transaction. That's all it is.

    Let's say some men are stranded on a deserted island. One of them takes to fishing, another one gathers coconuts.

    If one man trades his coconuts for fish, that's barter/trade.

    But let's say they agree to accept a precious mineral in return for their labors or the fruits thereof. They agree on this one kind of shiny rock because it's rare and cannot be easily reproduced. Which tends to keep things honest.

    So they say: I agree to accept shiny rocks and give you fish, as long as I can buy coconuts from you with the same shiny rocks.

    The shiny rocks of themselves are worthless. They are just a way to keep account of who gave fish (when no coconuts were given in return) and who gave coconuts (without getting any fish for them).

    It's like saying : I want some of your fish, but I don't have any coconuts on me. So if you'll take these shiny rocks, you can use them to get your coconuts back at my place.

    Therefore, anything you agree to use to keep track of 'unfinished' transactions IS by definition 'money'.

  9. #19
    This is how the economy will build itself over time according to my point of view:

    Once the game progresses, we will find a few very valuable items in game that are necessary for further development of tribes. These items will be in rarity and high demand. Once these items become the bases of trading in the game like (bronze, silver, gold) they will automatically give birth to "paper" currency. For example, if nails are so valuable that all tribes or players want them in the game, than tribes/players can decide among that selves that "1 nail" is worth "100 dollars". This will give value to dollars, cents and other currency that we find in game. I believe this can only be done once we know how much dollars are in rotation all together so their value can be determined. Lets see what happens, this is why this game is so much fun because no one knows the progression of it or the end game.

  10. #20
    But if the shiny rocks can be found by anyone just out gathering, they will use those shiny rocks. People would go out scavenging for shiny rocks all the time, even though shiny rocks have no real value outside what people assign them. Since shiny rocks can be used to pay for everything, and nobody would even think of throwing out shiny rocks, the amount of shiny rocks on the market will build and build and build.

    If you allow someone to buy your coconut for 50 shiny rocks, a month later there will be even more shiny rocks on the market, and the 50 shiny rocks now is half the value of the shiny rocks when you accepted them because of hyper-inflation that comes from using an easy to obtain currency with no real value.

    If I am a responsible tribe leader that can print my own currency and I back every Andian shiny rock I produce with a piece of leather, then my currency will always be worth ~1 piece of leather. (Around because how trustworthy I am factors in to the worth of my currency and even though I am a trustworthy person who would seek to prove that. I'm human making my currencies value slightly less than 1 leather to most people.)

    ALSO since I am the sole provider of my currency people aren't going out spending all their time looking for Andian shiny rocks. Which would greatly reduce market productivity and hurt the economy. Instead they practice their trade and trade things to people for Andian currency or a currency of another tribe they trust. Either that or they give me leather to put in my reserve, and I give them Andian currency.

    As little effort as it would take to implement my idea I think its worth a try once the server is more stable. If you wanted to trade in dollars you still could. But given that nobody is trading in dollars right now.....

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