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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Andius View Post
    But if the shiny rocks can be found by anyone just out gathering, they will use those shiny rocks. People would go out scavenging for shiny rocks all the time, even though shiny rocks have no real value outside what people assign them. Since shiny rocks can be used to pay for everything, and nobody would even think of throwing out shiny rocks, the amount of shiny rocks on the market will build and build and build.

    If you allow someone to buy your coconut for 50 shiny rocks, a month later there will be even more shiny rocks on the market, and the 50 shiny rocks now is half the value of the shiny rocks when you accepted them because of hyper-inflation that comes from using an easy to obtain currency with no real value.

    If I am a responsible tribe leader that can print my own currency and I back every Andian shiny rock I produce with a piece of leather, then my currency will always be worth ~1 piece of leather. (Around because how trustworthy I am factors in to the worth of my currency and even though I am a trustworthy person who would seek to prove that. I'm human making my currencies value slightly less than 1 leather to most people.)

    ALSO since I am the sole provider of my currency people aren't going out spending all their time looking for Andian shiny rocks. Which would greatly reduce market productivity and hurt the economy. Instead they practice their trade and trade things to people for Andian currency or a currency of another tribe they trust. Either that or they give me leather to put in my reserve, and I give them Andian currency.

    As little effort as it would take to implement my idea I think its worth a try once the server is more stable. If you wanted to trade in dollars you still could. But given that nobody is trading in dollars right now.....
    Yes, but what happens when you give me some Audian currency for free initially, I trade it for some armor than never come back. The reason I wont come back is because I Can't use Audian currency anywhere except with you and unless you are the sole provider of everything, I would rather keep the armor. But, if 3 tribes agree to use Audian currency to trade amongst themselves, than that would make sense.

  2. #22
    @rajax

    You only need to know the dollars in rotation if you intend to monitor/tamper with/control the value of things.

    But as you said an economy will be born out of the need to do business. I don't see that there's anything we really HAVE to do. It will happen as the natural course of commerce. Commerce likes convenient transactions. It's as certain as gravity.

    Also as you stated, people will determine their own value of things. This too is the natural order of commerce because beauty(read value) is in the eye of the beholder.

    Every man inherently knows the level of difficulty it took to get what he owns, and through that he'll quickly determine what it's worth to him.

    Again, I don't see that we really have to DO anything. The second two people begin to use tokens to account for incomplete transactions, we'll have a monetary system.

    Exactly my point rajax. It's not your money that has fortitude, it's really your word to finish the transaction. And if no one can finish the transaction or it becomes too difficult to complete the transaction then your currency will die.

    @and

    Which is why I stated that the shiny rocks were rare (meaning it takes time and effort to acquire them thereby not worth it to do as you suggested) and you couldn't counterfeit them (make shiny rocks out of dull gray ones). You don't choose a currency that anyone can produce. This is the very reason Gold has been used by economies all over the world for ages. Shiny rocks was just an example.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by rajaxone View Post
    Yes, but what happens when you give me some Audian currency for free initially, I trade it for some armor than never come back. The reason I wont come back is because I Can't use Audian currency anywhere except with you and unless you are the sole provider of everything, I would rather keep the armor. But, if 3 tribes agree to use Audian currency to trade amongst themselves, than that would make sense.
    If Andian (I assume that is what you meant.) currency is not honored by anyone other than me, this would surely be an issue, and initially I am sure it will be like that for all currencies. But as time goes on I believe you will see different forms of currencies become more widely accepted. Like I have my neighbors Animal Crackers. We agree to accept eachother's currencies. That means you can go to them or to me to get the items you want using my currency. Then I go out and make the same agreement with the Hopi tribe which is on some other corner of the map. Now I have two tribes in two locations that agree to accept my currency. Now I'm going out gathering a lot of items leather to put in my reserve and printing a lot of currency. The currency starts to catch on in my local area. Everyone in my local area starts to use it because it is available, and because its honored by Animal crackers. AND the some thing happens in the area around Hopi, and more tribes start agreeing to accept my currency. Then my currency starts spreading to people who live near some of my more remote neighbors that use it. People are bringing me leather to put in my reserve because its the dominate form of currency in the area, and they want it.

    You get the idea. Either that, or I try to get it out there, nobody wants to use it, and/or there is another tribe with a more dominant currency people are more interested in.

    Thats why I say its an experiment. Sure it could fail. I can guarantee some currencies will fail. But I'll bet that if you implemented this, you would get some pretty solid currencies that would become accepted by people over some pretty decent chunks of the map. You might even get multiple competing currencies accepted across the entire map.

    Added after 6 minutes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Trenchfoot View Post
    Which is why I stated that the shiny rocks were rare (meaning it takes time and effort to acquire them thereby not worth it to do as you suggested) and you couldn't counterfeit them (make shiny rocks out of dull gray ones). You don't choose a currency that anyone can produce. This is the very reason Gold has been used by economies all over the world for ages. Shiny rocks was just an example.
    Gold isn't just valuable because it is accepted as money. Gold is valuable because it is a rare, beautiful, and extremely non-reactive metal. Non-reactive is a good thing because it means that things made with gold will last an extremely long time and withstand the elements.

    I assumed your shiny rock was an argument toward "Why not just use dollars as currency." Which is what the post was trying to address.

  4. #24
    OK the @ the other And now (ius). Should have stated but was being lazy, sorry.

    Totally agree with you on that. People only want two things out of currency and that is 'trust' (that you can use it to complete your transaction or in your words honored), and 'convenience' (that you don't have to go out of your way to use it).

    Gold isn't just valuable because it is accepted as money. Gold is valuable because it is a rare, beautiful, and extremely non-reactive metal. Non-reactive is a good thing because it means that things made with gold will last an extremely long time and withstand the elements.

    I assumed your shiny rock was an argument toward "Why not just use dollars as currency." Which is what the post was trying to address.
    No one who rushed out west during the gold rush went there to have the gold to make a necklace. They went there for what the gold could buy. Again, it's simply a means by which you account for an incomplete transaction. It became a natural standard because you could spend your life looking for it and often times not only end up penniless but loose your life as well. That and the fact that you couldn't make gold out of lead or counterfeit it makes it a more stable currency (read keeps things more honest).

    Shiny rock was just a shiny rock. It might as well have said <insert item here>. And that's my point. It really doesn't matter whether it's sea shells or tribe currency or whatever.

    I'm not proposing a dollar currency at all. I don't know what I said that made you think that?

    I'm just proposing that we not tout any money system as a whole like the title of this thread suggests. No one says 'Hey you know what, let's all print up/agree on/use this for money.' All of a sudden out of the blue.

    You don't create currency for currencies sake in other words. First you have to have a need to purchase before you produce. Then currency will come in naturally as the people doing business will find it a convenient way to grease the wheels of commerce. Which they agree upon in the course of their business. And as you said things will catch on. We all know nature hates a vacuum. It will happen, with no need for everyone to agree on a single currency.

    If your tribes currency is good and easy for me to use, that's exactly what I'll be using. If several tribes currency is good and easy, I may end up using 'many' currencies. When it begins to become too inconvenient for me to do business with so many currencies, then you'll see things start to fall into place as people will gravitate to what is best for them.

    A currency will birth itself given time. No effort involved.

  5. #25
    They weren't going out and getting it because they wanted to make a necklace but the point is that is what made it such a solid currency worldwide. Even though they wouldn't use it for the purpose, some people would. Because it could be used to make a necklace, or ring, or crown, or decoration. If instead say, petrified turds were used as currency... people would ask. "Why should I accept this? This is worthless. Its rare, its hard to counterfeit, but it is useless. Certain governments might back the use of petrified turds but do you really think it become as solid of a currency as gold? And imagine how much of a waste of time it would be to have petrified turd miners.

    Really all I am pushing for here is for people to back the creation of tribal currencies or some form of coinage or currency making skill. As it stands right now, I can't just go make a currency and see how it works. There needs to be some form of game system allowing me to do it. And we won't get one without support.

  6. #26
    You don't need a government to back a currency for it to be useful. You only need one vendor who says I will honor this currency in exchange for my wares. To this day you have small towns in America who have and use their own currency (mainly in the farmers coops). The government didn't print it or regulate it. The business owners did. It's nothing more than a certified IOU. Leave it to the people doing business, not the governments. If your government exists to make a profit, it's no longer a government, it's a corporation where citizens by the nature of profit margins quickly become employees. Governments can adopt currency already in use, or adopt a standard to facilitate commerce, but to create (instead of adopt) a standard before you have a need to make commerce easier is putting the horse before the cart.

    And that's what I've noticed here. People here don't want to make currency for the purpose of making commerce easier, they want it for political gain and power. If you print currency just so you can say, 'Hey look at us we have our own money.', your currency will almost assuredly fail anyway.

    On the other hand this thread has brought up a good point. And that is: Wouldn't it be nice to have some kind of way to create certified documents?

    And that I agree with. For a government to run efficiently we could really use a way to create our own documents and have those said documents be certified (a time stamp and signature or something that says it is authentic). This could benefit the game in so many ways when it comes to governments running smoothly in the area of providing infrastructure and in the area of diplomatic relations. Too many to list really because these could be as useful to individuals as they are to governments/tribes.

    So yes, I am all for the 'create certified documentation' feature. If you then want to call the documents you make money that's up to you. But I do not agree that you should only have this ability through tribes. Everyone should have this ability.

    Of course the question that comes to my mind is: How will this effect the game database? hehehe To create thousands of 'possibly useless, definitely useful' items?

    If they can pull it off I'd like to see a way to create documents.

  7. #27
    The point is to make commerce easier. I won't lie and say it wouldn't be an ego boost to see a currency I started being traded by many other players for trade, but I also just feel I could create a currency which would be a more stable and better alternative to anything currently existing in game. Or someone else might create one. A currency that might even get used unlike anything currently in-game.

    I can agree that anyone could create their own currency. You could do some form of skill for creating currency that all players have access to. I mean without proper connections and backing of the currency it would be monopoly money anyway so why not let whoever wants to print their own currency print it?

  8. #28
    @Andius

    I think what you're talking about is banking not necessarily currency by itself. And for that all you need is the ability to create certified documents. No skills needed. Let's say two vendors are using 'tokens' for example to keep track of their transactions between one another. Another vendor steps in and begins honoring tokens too. Pretty soon, the people who do business with these vendors begin using 'tokens' too.

    Then a banker steps in and says 'We'll buy up your tokens in exchange for our currency, and you can come and redeem our currency for tokens.'. If all goes well pretty soon people and vendors alike are using 'Token Bills' instead of tokens. It's a process that begins on the ground level, not from the top down.

    For all of that to go down all you need is a way to create documents.

    EDIT: You might implement a paper making/ printing? skill or something similar. That would be neat combined with document creation.

  9. #29
    A paper printing skill would allow for the making of currency, as long as there was some way to make documents that had some sort of signature or way to authenticate them like you said, that couldn't be replicated by anyone who hasn't been given permission by whoever is overseeing the currency.

    So yes, if printing comes with some form of signature or stamp of authentication feature, this would be an entirely valid solution for me.

  10. #30
    First off all, there wont be any kind of economy in this game or maybe i should say "market" rather, thx to the guy who implemented the crafting and resources system(unless it changes which I doubt).
    Almost everything is very easy to make or gather/find(with few exceptions like human skulls). All craftable items require very little materials usually so you can make tons of everything in short amount of time.
    If you are in tribe with 5+ members where you can "cover" every craft then there wont be any need for trading.
    Its been only few weeks from release and my small very unactive tribe have probably around 150 baskets full of EVERYTHING(and i dont even wanna think how many things we discarded cos who need 300 hats or 300 tools of same kind?). Hundrets of armor parts,tools, weapons. Hundrets or even thousends of scavangable materials/items(and we have actually only one guy who was scavenging a lot, hit 99 few days ago).
    Tell me who will care to trade if in 2-3 months everybody will have tons of everything? What will be the reason to do that? Even if they will turn on the item decay? It wont help at all. Cos so what that my tool or weapon will decay after lets say few days if i have another 200 same tool/weapons waiting in baskets?
    The only things that may be traded will be very rare items like human skulls that are really hard to obtain, and how many such rare items are in game? 5(+maybe some recipies)? :P

    Only ppl who may want(need) to trade would be hermits( to get a tool they dont have at start or some armor set they want). So they will go to tribes to get desirable item, but what would tribe want from a hermit if they have everything(and tons of it)? They will just give stuff away for free :P
    Depletable junkpiles? Yeah... by the time they will be gone, there will be mountains of baskets full of stuff everywhere, and everybody will be "set" for very very long time.

    I hope im wrong but i really dont see how we can have any economy in this game with current state of crafting/resources system. Unless we all abandon tribes and become hermits :P

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