PvP vs. PK and some general impressions

[sisler86]

Tradeprawn wrote:

necoo wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Jhael wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Only the the most skilled or truly "bad" players would continue to become the monsters of the game. The run of the mill griefer will either stop playing Xsyon, or will change their ways to fighting others who want to fight or hunt said player monsters.

You know that argument has been used about a fluffing million times by now and it NEVER works out like that.
Why? Nobody is willingly going to play the bluntly penalized playstyle in a competitive environment because people like to stay competitive. What this creates is just that, an environment of only good players. It's not natural, it's not sandbox, it's not a CHOICE.

Also, not all fights are consensual nor should they be. That's like saying a country in real life should not be allowed to declare war on another unless the other accepts. I'm sure you can see how fluffing ridiculous that is and sounds like.

Also also , PvP is more then just about the fight. It's also about what happens before and after the fight. PvP also encompasses tactics rather then a blunt 1 on 1 fight (if that's how the "consensual" fight is set up). It also involves sneaking and getting away without losing in the slightly longer run through unforeseen causes.

We're not talking about real world here pal. We're talking about a game. People should enjoy it. If your a ganker and don't like the penalty go play another game. Xsyon has so much potential, I don't want it to turn in to groups of gankers wondering around killing every lone player walking around. Want to fight? Pick on someone your own size or face the consequences. I would think there wouldn't be many who would choose to play that way. That's the point.

so you are talking about protecting the community huh... well let me fill you in on a little secret... pkers are as much a part of the community as the rest of you carebears and the game mechanics must not be made to protect only one part but rather the entire community of the players including the most ruthless and evil of them. the game mechanics will be made to protect the community regardless of what the ppl do, much like the laws of physics govern our world... it is up to the ppl of the world to obey the laws that we make for ourselves as we deal with whatever comes our way be it good or bad. such is fate for there is nothing more then that.

If your neighbor(in game or out) whoomped you over the head and took your stuff everytime you stepped out of the house would you want them to be a part of the community? I personnly wouldn't mind them being gone. If you want pvp there seems to be plenty interested so you'll be able to get fights. If you want to gank, get good or spend most of your time not being able to log in.

That is actually a very good analogy.

[sisler86]

necoo wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Jhael wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Only the the most skilled or truly "bad" players would continue to become the monsters of the game. The run of the mill griefer will either stop playing Xsyon, or will change their ways to fighting others who want to fight or hunt said player monsters.

You know that argument has been used about a fluffing million times by now and it NEVER works out like that.
Why? Nobody is willingly going to play the bluntly penalized playstyle in a competitive environment because people like to stay competitive. What this creates is just that, an environment of only good players. It's not natural, it's not sandbox, it's not a CHOICE.

Also, not all fights are consensual nor should they be. That's like saying a country in real life should not be allowed to declare war on another unless the other accepts. I'm sure you can see how fluffing ridiculous that is and sounds like.

Also also , PvP is more then just about the fight. It's also about what happens before and after the fight. PvP also encompasses tactics rather then a blunt 1 on 1 fight (if that's how the "consensual" fight is set up). It also involves sneaking and getting away without losing in the slightly longer run through unforeseen causes.

We're not talking about real world here pal. We're talking about a game. People should enjoy it. If your a ganker and don't like the penalty go play another game. Xsyon has so much potential, I don't want it to turn in to groups of gankers wondering around killing every lone player walking around. Want to fight? Pick on someone your own size or face the consequences. I would think there wouldn't be many who would choose to play that way. That's the point.

so you are talking about protecting the community huh... well let me fill you in on a little secret... pkers are as much a part of the community as the rest of you carebears and the game mechanics must not be made to protect only one part but rather the entire community of the players including the most ruthless and evil of them. the game mechanics will be made to protect the community regardless of what the ppl do, much like the laws of physics govern our world... it is up to the ppl of the world to obey the laws that we make for ourselves as we deal with whatever comes our way be it good or bad. such is fate for there is nothing more then that.

That may be true, but you gotta look at it from both angles. Your rights as a player end where my rights begin. If I don't want to be ganked over and over, then by your own definition of being protected as a part of the community, you should respect that. Else, there should be consequences.

by my own definition you make your own laws to protect you within your tribe... much like the federal laws that govern the US but once you leave the country the laws no longer protect you and you are but a subject to the laws that affect the country you are in... perhaps the last part didn't clearly enplane that but... that is what following up is for.

Alright, I'll buy that. However, in real life, you aren't paying a monthly subscription to be alive. In a game you are paying for your fun. If we are going to pay for a game then there should be rules in place to ensure that we are getting our money's worth. Getting ganked over and over isn't worth the cost, but shouldn't we have the right to play without getting ganked all the time if we have to, in turn, accept those gankers as part of the community?

[necoo]

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Jhael wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Only the the most skilled or truly "bad" players would continue to become the monsters of the game. The run of the mill griefer will either stop playing Xsyon, or will change their ways to fighting others who want to fight or hunt said player monsters.

You know that argument has been used about a fluffing million times by now and it NEVER works out like that.
Why? Nobody is willingly going to play the bluntly penalized playstyle in a competitive environment because people like to stay competitive. What this creates is just that, an environment of only good players. It's not natural, it's not sandbox, it's not a CHOICE.

Also, not all fights are consensual nor should they be. That's like saying a country in real life should not be allowed to declare war on another unless the other accepts. I'm sure you can see how fluffing ridiculous that is and sounds like.

Also also , PvP is more then just about the fight. It's also about what happens before and after the fight. PvP also encompasses tactics rather then a blunt 1 on 1 fight (if that's how the "consensual" fight is set up). It also involves sneaking and getting away without losing in the slightly longer run through unforeseen causes.

We're not talking about real world here pal. We're talking about a game. People should enjoy it. If your a ganker and don't like the penalty go play another game. Xsyon has so much potential, I don't want it to turn in to groups of gankers wondering around killing every lone player walking around. Want to fight? Pick on someone your own size or face the consequences. I would think there wouldn't be many who would choose to play that way. That's the point.

so you are talking about protecting the community huh... well let me fill you in on a little secret... pkers are as much a part of the community as the rest of you carebears and the game mechanics must not be made to protect only one part but rather the entire community of the players including the most ruthless and evil of them. the game mechanics will be made to protect the community regardless of what the ppl do, much like the laws of physics govern our world... it is up to the ppl of the world to obey the laws that we make for ourselves as we deal with whatever comes our way be it good or bad. such is fate for there is nothing more then that.

That may be true, but you gotta look at it from both angles. Your rights as a player end where my rights begin. If I don't want to be ganked over and over, then by your own definition of being protected as a part of the community, you should respect that. Else, there should be consequences.

by my own definition you make your own laws to protect you within your tribe... much like the federal laws that govern the US but once you leave the country the laws no longer protect you and you are but a subject to the laws that affect the country you are in... perhaps the last part didn't clearly enplane that but... that is what following up is for.

Alright, I'll buy that. However, in real life, you aren't paying a monthly subscription to be alive. In a game you are paying for your fun. If we are going to pay for a game then there should be rules in place to ensure that we are getting our money's worth. Getting ganked over and over isn't worth the cost, but shouldn't we have the right to play without getting ganked all the time if we have to, in turn, accept those gankers as part of the community?

true enough however it is unlikely you will be ganked over and over again... at least not in your own territory as the laws of your tribe would (at least should) protect you from that... it is when you wonder out that the danger begins to peak... of course exploration is part of the game, but if you wish to explore you must take the appropriate risk that is going away from the protection and comfort your tribe would give you.

[sisler86]

necoo wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Jhael wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Only the the most skilled or truly "bad" players would continue to become the monsters of the game. The run of the mill griefer will either stop playing Xsyon, or will change their ways to fighting others who want to fight or hunt said player monsters.

You know that argument has been used about a fluffing million times by now and it NEVER works out like that.
Why? Nobody is willingly going to play the bluntly penalized playstyle in a competitive environment because people like to stay competitive. What this creates is just that, an environment of only good players. It's not natural, it's not sandbox, it's not a CHOICE.

Also, not all fights are consensual nor should they be. That's like saying a country in real life should not be allowed to declare war on another unless the other accepts. I'm sure you can see how fluffing ridiculous that is and sounds like.

Also also , PvP is more then just about the fight. It's also about what happens before and after the fight. PvP also encompasses tactics rather then a blunt 1 on 1 fight (if that's how the "consensual" fight is set up). It also involves sneaking and getting away without losing in the slightly longer run through unforeseen causes.

We're not talking about real world here pal. We're talking about a game. People should enjoy it. If your a ganker and don't like the penalty go play another game. Xsyon has so much potential, I don't want it to turn in to groups of gankers wondering around killing every lone player walking around. Want to fight? Pick on someone your own size or face the consequences. I would think there wouldn't be many who would choose to play that way. That's the point.

so you are talking about protecting the community huh... well let me fill you in on a little secret... pkers are as much a part of the community as the rest of you carebears and the game mechanics must not be made to protect only one part but rather the entire community of the players including the most ruthless and evil of them. the game mechanics will be made to protect the community regardless of what the ppl do, much like the laws of physics govern our world... it is up to the ppl of the world to obey the laws that we make for ourselves as we deal with whatever comes our way be it good or bad. such is fate for there is nothing more then that.

That may be true, but you gotta look at it from both angles. Your rights as a player end where my rights begin. If I don't want to be ganked over and over, then by your own definition of being protected as a part of the community, you should respect that. Else, there should be consequences.

by my own definition you make your own laws to protect you within your tribe... much like the federal laws that govern the US but once you leave the country the laws no longer protect you and you are but a subject to the laws that affect the country you are in... perhaps the last part didn't clearly enplane that but... that is what following up is for.

Alright, I'll buy that. However, in real life, you aren't paying a monthly subscription to be alive. In a game you are paying for your fun. If we are going to pay for a game then there should be rules in place to ensure that we are getting our money's worth. Getting ganked over and over isn't worth the cost, but shouldn't we have the right to play without getting ganked all the time if we have to, in turn, accept those gankers as part of the community?

true enough however it is unlikely you will be ganked over and over again... at least not in your own territory as the laws of your tribe would (at least should) protect you from that... it is when you wonder out that the danger begins to peak... of course exploration is part of the game, but if you wish to explore you must take the appropriate risk that is going away from the protection and comfort your tribe would give you.

I think you and I have finally come to agree, lol :P

[necoo]

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

necoo wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Jhael wrote:

Tradeprawn wrote:

Only the the most skilled or truly "bad" players would continue to become the monsters of the game. The run of the mill griefer will either stop playing Xsyon, or will change their ways to fighting others who want to fight or hunt said player monsters.

You know that argument has been used about a fluffing million times by now and it NEVER works out like that.
Why? Nobody is willingly going to play the bluntly penalized playstyle in a competitive environment because people like to stay competitive. What this creates is just that, an environment of only good players. It's not natural, it's not sandbox, it's not a CHOICE.

Also, not all fights are consensual nor should they be. That's like saying a country in real life should not be allowed to declare war on another unless the other accepts. I'm sure you can see how fluffing ridiculous that is and sounds like.

Also also , PvP is more then just about the fight. It's also about what happens before and after the fight. PvP also encompasses tactics rather then a blunt 1 on 1 fight (if that's how the "consensual" fight is set up). It also involves sneaking and getting away without losing in the slightly longer run through unforeseen causes.

We're not talking about real world here pal. We're talking about a game. People should enjoy it. If your a ganker and don't like the penalty go play another game. Xsyon has so much potential, I don't want it to turn in to groups of gankers wondering around killing every lone player walking around. Want to fight? Pick on someone your own size or face the consequences. I would think there wouldn't be many who would choose to play that way. That's the point.

so you are talking about protecting the community huh... well let me fill you in on a little secret... pkers are as much a part of the community as the rest of you carebears and the game mechanics must not be made to protect only one part but rather the entire community of the players including the most ruthless and evil of them. the game mechanics will be made to protect the community regardless of what the ppl do, much like the laws of physics govern our world... it is up to the ppl of the world to obey the laws that we make for ourselves as we deal with whatever comes our way be it good or bad. such is fate for there is nothing more then that.

That may be true, but you gotta look at it from both angles. Your rights as a player end where my rights begin. If I don't want to be ganked over and over, then by your own definition of being protected as a part of the community, you should respect that. Else, there should be consequences.

by my own definition you make your own laws to protect you within your tribe... much like the federal laws that govern the US but once you leave the country the laws no longer protect you and you are but a subject to the laws that affect the country you are in... perhaps the last part didn't clearly enplane that but... that is what following up is for.

Alright, I'll buy that. However, in real life, you aren't paying a monthly subscription to be alive. In a game you are paying for your fun. If we are going to pay for a game then there should be rules in place to ensure that we are getting our money's worth. Getting ganked over and over isn't worth the cost, but shouldn't we have the right to play without getting ganked all the time if we have to, in turn, accept those gankers as part of the community?

true enough however it is unlikely you will be ganked over and over again... at least not in your own territory as the laws of your tribe would (at least should) protect you from that... it is when you wonder out that the danger begins to peak... of course exploration is part of the game, but if you wish to explore you must take the appropriate risk that is going away from the protection and comfort your tribe would give you.

I think you and I have finally come to agree, lol :P

so it seams...

[Jhael]

Picumnus wrote:

I gotta say it is sad that I am still following this thread; but, I am so here it goes.

From what you wrote above I assume you feel there should be no consequences for "Crime" (ie., killing, stealing, etc). This is not to say that your tribe cannot declare war on mine (I expect all "red" tribes to pretty much declare war on everyone just to make it easy), but you, an individual member of a tribe, should not be allowed to kill me, a member of a tribe you are not at war with, without severe penalties. After all you can't just go randomly kill someone in RL without real consequences.

The rules should not be so severe as to completely exclude the "evil" players but should limit the number that choose that style to those that are willing to run the risks, much as organized crime, gangs, etc do in RL. They know that everyday they face prison or death and yet they choose that lifestyle, those that choose the same role in the game should face similar threats.

Alright back to work

Consequences, sure. But playermade consequences, not an arbitrary system. Just like real life - the "players" have made their laws and the "players" enforce them - there is no magical "hand of god" to "smite" those who do wrong.

You can't kill anyone in real life without severe consequences period. :silly:

Completely agree that rules should not be severe, but since I'll most probably be on the receiving end I perceive the acceptable severity a lot lower then you, who is on the end that never has to face it most probably. Should this not be up to those who actually play this sort of playstyle to say what is and what is not severe enough since you wouldn't exactly know or ever even feel it?

Tradeprawn wrote:

We're not talking about real world here pal. We're talking about a game. People should enjoy it. If your a ganker and don't like the penalty go play another game. Xsyon has so much potential, I don't want it to turn in to groups of gankers wondering around killing every lone player walking around. Want to fight? Pick on someone your own size or face the consequences. I would think there wouldn't be many who would choose to play that way. That's the point.

Exactly, we are not talking about real life. Stop trying to push the laws and ethics of real life.

People should enjoy it. But what you enjoy is not necessarily what everyone else enjoys. Your enjoyment is not more important then someone elses. Stop being such an egomaniac

By your zerg-whining big tribes should be severely penalized and made to quit because the small and the weak can't handle them. But that's not right is it.

We are talking about a whole new society here. One without countries or kingdoms (at least initially). In any such new and barely starting societies Might is Right - just have a good look at earth history. It should be up to that society to evolve past the point where might is right to a point where right is right :silly:
It shouldn't be a lawful environment from the get-go, it should earn that right by evolving to it naturally.

We can argue here endlessly, but in the end it will be up to the fact if the developers want this to be a sandbox, where players are given their own choices and paths or have their paths paved out for them like themeparks...or worse, Hello Kitty Online.

[Ciik]

I cant think of a conflict encounter, a fight, where one party doesn't have something to lose or gain.

[sisler86]

Jhael wrote:

Picumnus wrote:

I gotta say it is sad that I am still following this thread; but, I am so here it goes.

From what you wrote above I assume you feel there should be no consequences for "Crime" (ie., killing, stealing, etc). This is not to say that your tribe cannot declare war on mine (I expect all "red" tribes to pretty much declare war on everyone just to make it easy), but you, an individual member of a tribe, should not be allowed to kill me, a member of a tribe you are not at war with, without severe penalties. After all you can't just go randomly kill someone in RL without real consequences.

The rules should not be so severe as to completely exclude the "evil" players but should limit the number that choose that style to those that are willing to run the risks, much as organized crime, gangs, etc do in RL. They know that everyday they face prison or death and yet they choose that lifestyle, those that choose the same role in the game should face similar threats.

Alright back to work

Consequences, sure. But playermade consequences, not an arbitrary system. Just like real life - the "players" have made their laws and the "players" enforce them - there is no magical "hand of god" to "smite" those who do wrong.

You can't kill anyone in real life without severe consequences period. :silly:

Completely agree that rules should not be severe, but since I'll most probably be on the receiving end I perceive the acceptable severity a lot lower then you, who is on the end that never has to face it most probably. Should this not be up to those who actually play this sort of playstyle to say what is and what is not severe enough since you wouldn't exactly know or ever even feel it?

Tradeprawn wrote:

We're not talking about real world here pal. We're talking about a game. People should enjoy it. If your a ganker and don't like the penalty go play another game. Xsyon has so much potential, I don't want it to turn in to groups of gankers wondering around killing every lone player walking around. Want to fight? Pick on someone your own size or face the consequences. I would think there wouldn't be many who would choose to play that way. That's the point.

Exactly, we are not talking about real life. Stop trying to push the laws and ethics of real life.

People should enjoy it. But what you enjoy is not necessarily what everyone else enjoys. Your enjoyment is not more important then someone elses. Stop being such an egomaniac

By your zerg-whining big tribes should be severely penalized and made to quit because the small and the weak can't handle them. But that's not right is it.

We are talking about a whole new society here. One without countries or kingdoms (at least initially). In any such new and barely starting societies Might is Right - just have a good look at earth history. It should be up to that society to evolve past the point where might is right to a point where right is right :silly:
It shouldn't be a lawful environment from the get-go, it should earn that right by evolving to it naturally.

We can argue here endlessly, but in the end it will be up to the fact if the developers want this to be a sandbox, where players are given their own choices and paths or have their paths paved out for them like themeparks...or worse, Hello Kitty Online.

I love how you agreed that this isn't real life and then you gave a lot of real life examples. I'm not discrediting you or the points you made, I just thought I would point that out. :P

[Jhael]

sisler86 wrote:

I love how you agreed that this isn't real life and then you gave a lot of real life examples. I'm not discrediting you or the points you made, I just thought I would point that out. :P

They're no better.

But also, I'm not pushing the laws the real life has but push for the option of players making their own laws and how mechanics work. What is "right" in real life shouldn't automatically be right in the game unless the players choose and make it so EDIT: through INGAME methods, not some arbitrary pre-set method before you go there .

[sisler86]

Jhael wrote:

sisler86 wrote:

I love how you agreed that this isn't real life and then you gave a lot of real life examples. I'm not discrediting you or the points you made, I just thought I would point that out. :P

They're no better.

But also, I'm not pushing the laws the real life has but push for the option of players making their own laws and how mechanics work. What is "right" in real life shouldn't automatically be right in the game unless the players choose and make it so.

You do have a point. As long as people aren't abusing the system then I'll go with this.