PvP vs. PK and some general impressions

[Picumnus]

JCatano wrote:

Picumnus wrote:

necoo wrote:

this is a fairly good idea however somethings must be added to it for this to work and that is... the carebear guy would have to drag the criminal all the way to the prison and the unconscious guy can still gain consciousness wile you are doing so... it would be rather annoying if i respawned in the prison to say the least and it would allow my buddies to help me out in case i fall unconscious... further more this is a game of freedom any and all consequences must only happen by involving other players and not be completely tied into the game mechanics, for example the game integrates reputation as a consequence however this reputation involves the players around you, furthermore the game mechanics must not be made to protect only the carebear guys but also the pkers

I am a little confused on why we need to protect the PKers more than having a legal system with appeals, etc. In RL no one says, "I'm sorry we got to protect the murders.... it is tough being a murder and no one ever looks out for them". The point is, we are developing a society and jI can't see how a society can function if crime (especially PKing) is let unpunished. There must be a MUCH stiffer punishment for PKer's went caught/killed than the regular joeblow or else why doesn't everyone PK... There would be no builders, no crafters, no gathers... wait if that were the case, what are we fighting for??? After all there would be nothing to steal from the victim .

As far as your buddies rescuing you, on the way to the prison, I could see this being the case but it would have to be a fairly quick response... and how would you contact them? After all, you only get one phone call I don't think that
you should be allowed to spam your factions channel with where you are or any of that... but I can see gaining consciousness and shouting for help etc. I agree though that you should not get knocked out and then wake up in prison... but you shouldn't have forever and a day to actually "call" for help either.

Jadzia did point out one real problem... what do the criminals do in jail... no one wants to pay real money to have their toon unplayable for X period of time. Maybe just like in real jails you can work on your strengt, stamina, etc so that you toon is still "growing" while in jail. I could also see prison riots where groups of prisons try to escape. or as he/she pointed out, try to dig tunnels. Also, the carebears would have to provide food (if such a think exist in the game, I guess/think it does?) for the prisoners which puts a burden on the carebears for capturing people. Much like taxes for prison put a burden on us in RL.

Bottom line... there ultimately has to been a long term decrease in the PKing or else I cannot see how an society that is stable in the mid- to long term can exist.

Hyperbole in bold. If that was true, nobody in DF would craft/build/gather, but many do (just about everyone, actually).

Admittedly a bit of an exaggeration but I think the point I was trying to make still stands... there must be penalties if caught PKing or else there is no balance. At least that is the way I look at it.

[JCatano]

PANZERBUNNY wrote:
Its shortsighted and naive to think that "everything" you've worked for can be destroyed. They've even stated that when you Pk someone, you have the choice to take an item from them etc. I doubt this will be a full loot system, though it MAY have full loot in certain circumstances?(All out war etc)

Frankly, in a game where they've said that perma death and stat loss exist, complaining that someone may bash you over the head every now and then is a SMALL SMALL issue.

again, this is a game where teamwork will pay off. If you want to solo whatever you choose, it will be more difficult. Having territory that is guarded by the members of your tribe and other allies helps protect you from pkers.

Consequence gaming is on the rise. Wheres the joy in gaining something without the possibility of loss? Wheres the sense of achievement?

"Players from an evil tribe are free to loot and pillage and will gain reputation within their own tribe for doing so, but they will also be vulnerable to attacks from all players who will be able to attack evil players without negative consequences."
---
"Players from enemy tribes at war can fight to the death with full looting (Potentially tribe leaders can come to a looting agreement for this as well)."

http://www.xsyon.com/forums/28-featu...-and-decisions

[JCatano]

Picumnus wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Picumnus wrote:

necoo wrote:

this is a fairly good idea however somethings must be added to it for this to work and that is... the carebear guy would have to drag the criminal all the way to the prison and the unconscious guy can still gain consciousness wile you are doing so... it would be rather annoying if i respawned in the prison to say the least and it would allow my buddies to help me out in case i fall unconscious... further more this is a game of freedom any and all consequences must only happen by involving other players and not be completely tied into the game mechanics, for example the game integrates reputation as a consequence however this reputation involves the players around you, furthermore the game mechanics must not be made to protect only the carebear guys but also the pkers

I am a little confused on why we need to protect the PKers more than having a legal system with appeals, etc. In RL no one says, "I'm sorry we got to protect the murders.... it is tough being a murder and no one ever looks out for them". The point is, we are developing a society and jI can't see how a society can function if crime (especially PKing) is let unpunished. There must be a MUCH stiffer punishment for PKer's went caught/killed than the regular joeblow or else why doesn't everyone PK... There would be no builders, no crafters, no gathers... wait if that were the case, what are we fighting for??? After all there would be nothing to steal from the victim .

As far as your buddies rescuing you, on the way to the prison, I could see this being the case but it would have to be a fairly quick response... and how would you contact them? After all, you only get one phone call I don't think that
you should be allowed to spam your factions channel with where you are or any of that... but I can see gaining consciousness and shouting for help etc. I agree though that you should not get knocked out and then wake up in prison... but you shouldn't have forever and a day to actually "call" for help either.

Jadzia did point out one real problem... what do the criminals do in jail... no one wants to pay real money to have their toon unplayable for X period of time. Maybe just like in real jails you can work on your strengt, stamina, etc so that you toon is still "growing" while in jail. I could also see prison riots where groups of prisons try to escape. or as he/she pointed out, try to dig tunnels. Also, the carebears would have to provide food (if such a think exist in the game, I guess/think it does?) for the prisoners which puts a burden on the carebears for capturing people. Much like taxes for prison put a burden on us in RL.

Bottom line... there ultimately has to been a long term decrease in the PKing or else I cannot see how an society that is stable in the mid- to long term can exist.

Hyperbole in bold. If that was true, nobody in DF would craft/build/gather, but many do (just about everyone, actually).

Admittedly a bit of an exaggeration but I think the point I was trying to make still stands... there must be penalties if caught PKing or else there is no balance. At least that is the way I look at it.

Of course, but most of the suggestions I've seen on here are simply outrageous. "Red" doesn't always mean "immature griefer". There are just as many dolts who play as "blue". There has to be balance along the entire spectrum.

[Jadzia]

PANZERBUNNY wrote:

Its shortsighted and naive to think that "everything" you've worked for can be destroyed.

I guess he thought of loosing a town in siege.

They've even stated that when you Pk someone, you have the choice to take an item from them etc. I doubt this will be a full loot system, though it MAY have full loot in certain circumstances?(All out war etc)

Frankly, in a game where they've said that perma death and stat loss exist, complaining that someone may bash you over the head every now and then is a SMALL SMALL issue.

perma death is optional, Xsyon stated it, and did you read any official announcement about stat loss ? or you mean skill decay ?

again, this is a game where teamwork will pay off. If you want to solo whatever you choose, it will be more difficult. Having territory that is guarded by the members of your tribe and other allies helps protect you from pkers.

Consequence gaming is on the rise. Wheres the joy in gaining something without the possibility of loss? Wheres the sense of achievement?

I get the sense of achievement from reaching the goals I've set for myself. The possibility of loosing what I've worked for doesn't add anything for my joy or game experience, its simply irritating. I understand it gives bonus to your gameplay, but try to see the game from others' point of view...we are different people with different tastes.

And just for your information PvP is not dangerous or exciting or thrilling to me...its boring and bugging. Thats why i don't want to be forced to do it. Would you like to be forced to play hide and seek in a game with bored kids ? Wouldn't you cry that its boring to you and you want to do what you really like ?

[JCatano]

Jadzia wrote:

PANZERBUNNY wrote:

Its shortsighted and naive to think that "everything" you've worked for can be destroyed.

I guess he thought of loosing a town in siege.

They've even stated that when you Pk someone, you have the choice to take an item from them etc. I doubt this will be a full loot system, though it MAY have full loot in certain circumstances?(All out war etc)

Frankly, in a game where they've said that perma death and stat loss exist, complaining that someone may bash you over the head every now and then is a SMALL SMALL issue.

perma death is optional, Xsyon stated it, and did you read any official announcement about stat loss ? or you mean skill decay ?

again, this is a game where teamwork will pay off. If you want to solo whatever you choose, it will be more difficult. Having territory that is guarded by the members of your tribe and other allies helps protect you from pkers.

Consequence gaming is on the rise. Wheres the joy in gaining something without the possibility of loss? Wheres the sense of achievement?

I get the sense of achievement from reaching the goals I've set for myself. The possibility of loosing what I've worked for doesn't add anything for my joy or game experience, its simply irritating. I understand it gives bonus to your gameplay, but try to see the game from others' point of view...we are different people with different tastes.

And just for your information PvP is not dangerous or exciting or thrilling to me...its boring and bugging. Thats why i don't want to be forced to do it. Would you like to be forced to play hide and seek in a game with bored kids ? Wouldn't you cry that its boring to you and you want to do what you really like ?

Why are you trying to change something that is obviously a fundamental choice with regard to Xsyon? I'm willing to bet the PvP system was one of the first mechanics thought of when the lead dev imagined the game.

[Jadzia]

JCatano wrote:

Why are you trying to change something that is obviously a fundamental choice with regard to Xsyon? I'm willing to bet the PvP system was one of the first mechanics thought of when the lead dev imagined the game.

Because its not fundamental. The PvP or town siege isn't mentioned on the feature list, if someone read that and buy the game probably will be very surprised with the open PvP system. And Xsyon said there might be another server with safer environment if there is a demand with enough players for that...how will he get to know there is a demand if we don't voice our opinion ?

[necoo]

you ppl are quite irritating as what you want is just pure gain without any loss... without loss is there any point trying to gain something if there is no risk involved is there any point to continue to try... where is the point in that if all you do is build up and up and up will the tower really be able to hold such weight, would it not collapse. stop being so selfish if you want to gain something you must take the appropriate risk... less the purpose be lost

[JCatano]

Jadzia wrote:

JCatano wrote:

Why are you trying to change something that is obviously a fundamental choice with regard to Xsyon? I'm willing to bet the PvP system was one of the first mechanics thought of when the lead dev imagined the game.

Because its not fundamental. The PvP or town siege isn't mentioned on the feature list, if someone read that and buy the game probably will be very surprised with the open PvP system. And Xsyon said there might be another server with safer environment if there is a demand with enough players for that...how will he get to know there is a demand if we don't voice our opinion ?

He made a long post about the PvP that I already posted a few times. I have no idea why it's not in the features, but the PvP is obviously open-PvP. That is definitely a fundamental design choice. It is probably the first decision you make since it affects so many mechanics.

As far as sieges not being in the features... My guess is that they don't even have the mechanics finished. Hence, my earlier statement about paid-beta. :P

I hope you get your PvE server. That would mean that Xsyon is doing well subscription-wise.

[Jadzia]

necoo wrote:

you ppl are quite irritating as what you want is just pure gain without any loss... without loss is there any point trying to gain something if there is no risk involved is there any point to continue to try... where is the point in that if all you do is build up and up and up will the tower really be able to hold such weight, would it not collapse. stop being so selfish if you want to gain something you must take the appropriate risk... less the purpose be lost

Honestly, I don't understand this selfish thing. Is it selfish if you work in real and you keep your salary and don't want thieves to steal it ? I don't want to cause any harm to any of the players...is that selfish ? If others want to steal what I've worked for their side seems to be selfish for me...

And I'm not trying to convince you that my playstyle is fun for you. Probably its not. You have the choice to play as you like, I'm not stopping you. Why do you want to stop me to play in the way I like ?

[necoo]

Jadzia wrote:

necoo wrote:

you ppl are quite irritating as what you want is just pure gain without any loss... without loss is there any point trying to gain something if there is no risk involved is there any point to continue to try... where is the point in that if all you do is build up and up and up will the tower really be able to hold such weight, would it not collapse. stop being so selfish if you want to gain something you must take the appropriate risk... less the purpose be lost

Honestly, I don't understand this selfish thing. Is it selfish if you work in real and you keep your salary and don't want thieves to steal it ? I don't want to cause any harm to any of the players...is that selfish ? If others want to steal what I've worked for their side seems to be selfish for me...

And I'm not trying to convince you that my playstyle is fun for you. Probably its not. You have the choice to play as you like, I'm not stopping you. Why do you want to stop me to play in the way I like ?

you completely missed my point...
everytime you step out of your house for work you are taking a risk, there are those out there who would do you wrong for what you have, so why do you step out of your house... becuase you need money by any means you have at your disposal, why do you need money... to buy the food that feeds you and your family in order to live, and so you step outside and take the risk that someone out there might mug you or kill you or do unspeakable things to you... however the ppl who would do those things to you also need to make money to feed themselves and their family. and due to their circumstances the only way to make money for these things is to take money from whatever resources they have available and they take the risk that they might go to jail or worse.

what you want is to be able to get the money to get the food to feed yourself and your family without taking any risk... now that in and of itself isn't necessarily wrong however it is indeed unrealistic and so you are selfish in thinking that you can do these things without taking those risks