Let diplomacy and/or war settle this?

[chaosegg]

Great point made by river111 on page 5 of this thread:
http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthrea...s-unbelievable
My own rant is on page 4...

I was all for a fair start, but seems technical issue have taken that away. No I dont want another wipe, I lost both my spots and dont care either way. If you lost your spot I personally think its time to turn on the combat and lets get this war rolling. We tried the peaceful landgrab 2 times now (3 if you count the second start today) and its all jacked each time. So lets turn it all on, let the big tribes that lost out go nomad until they can grief the thieves off thier plot. If they had it at 9am PST but not at the second wipe then I feel they have every right to fight for thier land now. Let let the diplomats take the lead here, either work out peaceful deals for the land or fight for it. But please, do NOT wipe and do again.

I actually agree with this solution, and I would be happy with it,
but ideally, also give us a way to remove someone else's totem.
How exactly can we do that now without just being super annoying?

In reality someone could walk up, burn your house to the ground, chop your totem down, and walk off.
But also "in reality" there is a "fair balance" deterrent, because you could have sentry/alarms (dogs, watchtowers etc), and if you kill someone, or injure them, they are likely to be permanently removed as a threat.

This is a game, not reality- yes I know.
I'm not advocating a perfectly realistic system; this is a game and that is why games have systems for dealing with things like conquest and diplomacy which are balanced to the specifics of the game boundaries (Which are by nature, limited to less-than-real).
You have to admit though, that making a game with such strong focus on realistic features not having a system to balance basic property rights is kind of strange.

[ifireallymust]

Here is my problem with that: I'm on a fairly inoffensive location (the first one was even better, no tribe would want it, all it had was a small junk pile and not much room around it). But do you think that matters once people realize they can attack people and destroy their totems? The solo players and small tribes will all be gone within a day if this happens.

[Sorakin]

Yea unfortunately the game is not ready for this kind of warfare... but this is the correct answer to the homestead/landrush problem.

[Dubanka]

all we've ever wanted.

the more you try to code a solution the more vulnerable you are to a coded problem.

Let the players loose. If you can hold it? great.
If you can't? retreat, set up shop in a more defensible/less desirable/more remote location...lick your wounds then come back and take back what was yours.

The more we try to 'code' fair, the less fair the whole process is.

[Sorakin]

all we've ever wanted.

the more you try to code a solution the more vulnerable you are to a coded problem.

Let the players loose. If you can hold it? great.
If you can't? retreat, set up shop in a more defensible/less desirable/more remote location...lick your wounds then come back and take back what was yours.

The more we try to 'code' fair, the less fair the whole process is.

Seems like the more they 'code' fair the more it benefits the solo players

[kaisergod]

Seems like the more they 'code' fair the more it benefits the solo players

So let me get this right...

A tribe with 20+ members, all able to work together to build, create things for eachother, fight alongside eachother etc and a large area of land.

VS

A solo player, needing to fend for themselves, build everything themselves, make/earn eevrything themselves on a tiny little plot of land, made even tinier recently.

And youre crying about how "hard" it is for tribes.

<3 the tears.

[Sorakin]

So let me get this right...

A tribe with 20+ members, all able to work together to build, create things for eachother, fight alongside eachother etc and a large area of land.

VS

A solo player, needing to fend for themselves, build everything themselves, make/earn eevrything themselves on a tiny little plot of land, made even tinier recently.

And youre crying about how "hard" it is for tribes.

<3 the tears.

There is talk of being unable to harvest while encroaching (coding it fair), who has the benefit? The large tribe who has so much invested in infrastructure they can't move or the solo player who just dumps his totem wherever his current needs of resources are?

The landgrab and tribes needing a clear 220m radius, oh wait someone ran in and dropped a homestead 200m away I guess you can't have your tribe here anymore sorry. I guess the Exalted Empire of the Noble Eagles (hope thats not a real tribe name) will have to look elsewhere because "LOLUHAVEAIDS" wanted his totem in the middle of that junk pile.

If someone gets attacked and they run to their tribe/homestead... both are protected equally right now. So much for "fending" for themselves.

Oh and when they run out of resources? Guess who can pick up shop and go elsewhere? that's right, the solo player.

As a per player resource claim, the homestead is more efficient than any one tribe. 1player, 30m radius (20m now?) even with the lower estimate of 20m, if that puts tribes with 20 people, the bare minimum at 220m.... which is equal to 11 homesteads. Sorry tribes, solo wins again!

Until there is siege... until there are no safe zones... until there is a meaningful reason to be in a tribe the homestead wins on every front. And all this is because siege and defense is not in yet, so they had to protect people and "coded it fair". Well everyone is protected, but the soloers are taking this game to the bank.

**edit** I even forgot about the homestead's radius, so forget 200m away, that homestead could've been dropped 230m away, your tribe is still screwed.

[kaisergod]

There is talk of being unable to harvest while encroaching (coding it fair), who has the benefit? The large tribe who has so much invested in infrastructure they can't move or the solo player who just dumps his totem wherever his current needs of resources are?

The landgrab and tribes needing a clear 220m radius, oh wait someone ran in and dropped a homestead 200m away I guess you can't have your tribe here anymore sorry. I guess the Exalted Empire of the Noble Eagles (hope thats not a real tribe name) will have to look elsewhere because "LOLUHAVEAIDS" wanted his totem in the middle of that junk pile.

If someone gets attacked and they run to their tribe/homestead... both are protected equally right now. So much for "fending" for themselves.

Oh and when they run out of resources? Guess who can pick up shop and go elsewhere? that's right, the solo player.

As a per player resource claim, the homestead is more efficient than any one tribe. 1player, 30m radius (20m now?) even with the lower estimate of 20m, if that puts tribes with 20 people, the bare minimum at 220m.... which is equal to 11 homesteads. Sorry tribes, solo wins again!

Until there is siege... until there are no safe zones... until there is a meaningful reason to be in a tribe the homestead wins on every front. And all this is because siege and defense is not in yet, so they had to protect people and "coded it fair". Well everyone is protected, but the soloers are taking this game to the bank.

**edit** I even forgot about the homestead's radius, so forget 200m away, that homestead could've been dropped 230m away, your tribe is still screwed.

Much of what youre saying is true, but the fact is its exactly the same in real life too. Which is more mobile and less dependant on resources, an entire established village or single person/small family who can move from place to place as needed?

Of course the larger group isnt as mobile and needs more resources, but you have NUMBERS. What do succesful tribes in real life have, which has allowed them to survive and grow into something larger? Is everyone a crafter? Is everyone a warrior? Is everyone a food gatherer? No. Its called specialization.

It may suck to have to do it, but the truth is in order to be truly succesful youre going to need to force your tribe members to be specialists, even if the work theyre doing sucks. Some will need to spend time terraforming, others fighting, others hunting animals & fishing, some gathering junk, some collecting wood, etc. So when you run out of resources youre going to need to make great use of everyones specializations.

No junk piles anywhere near you left? Well youre going to have to use your numbers to organize parties to go out and gather some junk further away along with some bodyguards for them so they dont get killed and robbed in the process.

Solo players however will not be able to specialize nearly as well. We will need to find a way to do everything for ourselves, with no backup. Out gathering junk? Youre your own bodyguard.

Alos when it comes to resources, youre kind of avoiding the fact that your tribe, with it smuch much larger land area has a HELL of a lot more resources within the safe zone than any soloer/homesteader can ever dream of getting in safety. And even if you do manage to deplete those, then like i said, youve got the numbers so use them. If your enot going to work together an duse your numbers as an advantage, why are you even in tribes?

[kaisergod]

all we've ever wanted.

the more you try to code a solution the more vulnerable you are to a coded problem.

Let the players loose. If you can hold it? great.
If you can't? retreat, set up shop in a more defensible/less desirable/more remote location...lick your wounds then come back and take back what was yours.

The more we try to 'code' fair, the less fair the whole process is.

The problem is you wont be able to setup shop and come back later. Think about the time it takes to rebuild all of your stuff, even without doing any terraforming. Meanwhile, a large tribe if they wanted to could just run around destroying everything everyone else has worked for within minutes, and theres no way to defend yourself. Even f you do manage to defend your land, are you going to stay logged on 24x7 for the rest of your time playing Xsyon? All they need to do is wait for you to logoff for sleep, work, etc and then destroy it all with no risk whatsoever to themselves. Wther its "desirable" or not wont matter. If they can destroy it, they will, simply to stop you from being able to rebuild and come after them later on.

Thats the reason safezones are there for now, because there are no defenses in yet. Once we have our defenses, then the conquering will begin.

[Sorakin]

Minutes? Siege should take hours at least. I guess with defenses it could go into the hours, but that goes back to the game not being ready yet :P