Suggested combat system for the overhaul

[Trenchfoot]

What RM said. ^^

And frankly, I did stop reading at lock-ons. It's symbolic of everything I hate about games that do all the work for you. I'd rather read a book than watch two calculators do battle. And further I would be dead set against any feature that takes the skill of the player out of their hands. Hitting what you are aiming at manually is a skill. Some got it, others just need practice. This is why we love MnB style combat. I takes real effort and real skill.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Hmm you make some damn good points Morgan.

One of the reasons I did suggest a lock-on was to offset lag. Also like I said before if done right you couldn't just sit there and bash your button to win. In demon souls it took timing, active tactics, MP/endurance management, and preparation to win; if you were an invader anyway. I also disagree that it would have no place in a PvP setting since demon souls pulled it off really well.

But with that said, I can't disagree that it would dumb down gameplay from targeting with your mouse. And I understand the fear too well and I worry that stats/equipment would have too much of an effect. Then again regardless of the battle system stats/equipment could still have too much of an effect. Another reason though why I'm drawing so heavily from demon souls is it took a lot of skill and I won quite a few fights when I was out manned, and out gunned(also got my ass kicked other times....rolling off cliffs suck).

What if the weapons hurt everybody around you that got hit by the weapon swing? Regardless if they were friend or foe. So that way you couldn't just run in and kill a guy, you'd likely have to layer it out so you didn't hurt your own people.

Well even if lock-on may be a bad idea I'd still rather see a different dodge system than what we currently have lol. A couple rolls here or there would be nice.

Added after 5 minutes:

What RM said. ^^

And frankly, I did stop reading at lock-ons. It's symbolic of everything I hate about games that do all the work for you. I'd rather read a book than watch two calculators do battle. And further I would be dead set against any feature that takes the skill of the player out of their hands. Hitting what you are aiming at manually is a skill. Some got it, others just need practice. This is why we love MnB style combat. I takes real effort and real skill.

Don't blame you for it, I'd hate to see two calculators fight it out too. I also understand my post is quite long(sorry) but it doesn't revolve around lock on. I believe there are other good ideas in the post and may help you understand some of my points about a lock on. The last thing I would want to see, is the game be about completely be about the gear/stats....but it already seems quite dependent on stats. 90 agi/str/fortitude anyone?

[Trenchfoot]

@ WolfMoonStrike

Play MnB until you get good at it and you'll understand instantly why it's so popular here. Because in MnB skill can and often does override even the best of gear.

[wolfmoonstrike]

@ WolfMoonStrike

Play MnB until you get good at it and you'll understand instantly why it's so popular here. Because in MnB skill can and often does override even the best of gear.

Already have, already good. Great game. Hands down great game. I was only suggesting this as an alternative lol. I honestly don't believe that this suggestion would be taken as a whole, but if parts of it made it in I think it could enhance even an MnB system.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Like I said, Demons Souls is a great game, so I can see why you'd find inspiration in it. I just don't agree that it translates well into MMO pvp. It's not like you get 30 vs 30 battles in that game; most combat is 1v1. There are things about it that do translate really well, though, as you mentioned.

From my experience you need certain elements to make good action-based combat. Players need to ultize their skill in timing, positioning, range, stamina conservation and commitment. (By commitment I mean that making an attacking makes you vulnerable until you recover your animation.) To make good group combat, you have to give players the ability to use terrain, cover and some degree of formations to their advantage. And, of course, friendly fire is a must if group combat is to be anything other than a zerg fest.

Yeah to tell the truth I was worried about how some of the mechanics would translate into an MMO. I certainly can't disagree that you'd need formations and if you weren't able to utilize terrain I'd be devastated regardless of the combat system lol.I think committing to an attack would be a great to see since that would (hopefully) think about timing and how they attack, regardless of combat system . Actually if they didn't put in lock on but made sure that timing, position, range, stamina conservation, and commitment was all in I'd be very happy.

There is/was a lot in demon souls that I'd kill to see in an MMO, and lock on wasn't really the important one lol. I think the balance between combat styles was way more important. I never felt like I need to be a certain way to win in Demon's Souls.

[Belight]

I see the biggest flaws in your suggestion as being your concepts of a weapon stopping when hitting an object and weapon parrying.

You see, that requires every weapon to have it's own hit box. That hit boxes movements must be tracked and then it's interaction with objects, players, or other weapons must also be tracked... This greatly increases the calculations needed and thus increases lag.

In most MMOs you should feel lucky to have a player hit box that registers front and back. Tab Targeting games typically only register a hit. Something like DarkFall only tracks front and back hits. It doesn't even have the addition of head hitboxes.

While I do think that multiple hit boxes, like what MO tried (Pretty sure it didn't work out to well performance wise), is the future of MMOs... I don't think it is the realistic future of Xsyon.

But we can dream, right?

[orious13]

Not sure what you mean Orious. More detail, or possibly an example please?

lol...maybe some weapons have a bigger semi-target than others or maybe something else. Honestly I don't remember what part of my brain I was using when I first typed that.

Anyway, I just like inventing crazy concepts just to be different sometimes. Ha ha.

[biotek]

Jumping around like a gymnast doing a floor exercise is a terrible example of dodging in combat. Look at boxing and martial arts... short quick motions that avoid the attack just enough, that's all it needs to be. It would be hindered by encumbrance, but not as much as many might think.

About the lock-on versus manual aiming - there's a place for a both, and it's based entirely off of opinion. RPGs were originally about the character, not the player - the whole point was to break your own real-life limits. And while manual aiming does have some degree of skill involved, so does stats/probability planning. Both of them are secondary to other variables such as positioning, timing, and equipment.

It's been a long time since I've played it, but Tabula Rasa had a good hybrid system, I remember right. It was primarily fps controls with a retical. But it was fairly lenient and used a soft-lock system so that you could maintain a target during crowded/messy fights. I liked that system because it combined some of the FPS manual aiming with RPG style stat based combat. It felt quick, fluid, and fun.

Some might argue that combat should be about personal skill (manual aim/target) instead of stats or gear (which if designed correctly takes skill, not grind). However, this point of view often ignores the technological advantages that some players will have in real life - essentially claiming that good gear is unfair in-game where everyone has access, but expensive accessories out of game are completely legit.

In the end I still think it's more a matter of preference. I happen to prefer a well done hybrid of the two.

[orious13]

Jumping around like a gymnast doing a floor exercise is a terrible example of dodging in combat. Look at boxing and martial arts... short quick motions that avoid the attack just enough, that's all it needs to be. It would be hindered by encumbrance, but not as much as many might think.

About the lock-on versus manual aiming - there's a place for a both, and it's based entirely off of opinion. RPGs were originally about the character, not the player - the whole point was to break your own real-life limits. And while manual aiming does have some degree of skill involved, so does stats/probability planning. Both of them are secondary to other variables such as positioning, timing, and equipment.

It's been a long time since I've played it, but Tabula Rasa had a good hybrid system, I remember right. It was primarily fps controls with a retical. But it was fairly lenient and used a soft-lock system so that you could maintain a target during crowded/messy fights. I liked that system because it combined some of the FPS manual aiming with RPG style stat based combat. It felt quick, fluid, and fun.

Some might argue that combat should be about personal skill (manual aim/target) instead of stats or gear (which if designed correctly takes skill, not grind). However, this point of view often ignores the technological advantages that some players will have in real life - essentially claiming that good gear is unfair in-game where everyone has access, but expensive accessories out of game are completely legit.

In the end I still think it's more a matter of preference. I happen to prefer a well done hybrid of the two.

Yeah I agree with this. I actually think consolizing rpgs is in fact making them twitch-based (not saying I'm against the 0 target because that does make things more challenging). When I saw targeting, TR is exactly what came to mind... that's a semi-target that still requires aiming skills, but includes rpg elements and RNG. Even Age of Conan has interesting rpgstyle half twitch half targeting combat. The current dodge/parry system I actually like it just needs some tweaking.

[JCatano]

I'm sure someone has already said it, but this was me when I read "lock on":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o19CaOSuD8