Suggested combat system for the overhaul

[xyberviri]

right now with testing it looks like gear has no effect on combat. Weapons have some effect but not much. its mostly based on your skills at this time. Preordered weapons are pretty strong so that sorta leads me to belive that they some what do affect combat.


per my tests, your results may vary, im not speaking for the devs

[Trenchfoot]

right now with testing it looks like gear has no effect on combat. Weapons have some effect but not much. its mostly based on your skills at this time. Preordered weapons are pretty strong so that sorta leads me to belive that they some what do affect combat.

Are you saying dodge and parry are currently effective?

[orious13]

They already stated the want an MnB style. I doubt that's going to change... however they said "try" to get one made lol.

Also gear supposedly does work. Just that the gear probably isn't high quality and pre-order weapons are OP. Yes... even with the semi-working armor people die too fast. The current combat needs to be slowed down so that dodging and parrying is effective. They really aren't right now.

[Trenchfoot]

I don't think anyone is saying take stats off of gear or make gear or stats a non-issue. I know I didn't.

We're saying gear/stats should be a factor, which can then be overridden by superior player skill. In other words, gear/stats will be more important to unskilled players, and less important to skilled players. Nothing more.

It's like a crappy guitar player who blames the fact that he can't play on his cheap guitar. He can't wait to get his expensive guitar, then he'll really be able to play. Or the idea that you can jump higher if you wear the best sneakers.

I think what folks are really afraid of is true competition. Some people can't deal with the fact that someone else might be better at it than they are. They need the math so badly, their game revolves around it, and without it they couldn't pvp to save their life.

Math is great when it comes to let's say masonry or crafting skills. But combat is rooted in competition. It's the one area players should be allowed to shine just because they're good at it, not because they've spent more hours in game macro grinding stats.

We shouldn't be afraid to allow the cream to rise to the top.

@hellaciouss

The Wako kid hung up his guns after being shot in the backside by a 12 year old kid. Sound familiar? That was fictional. But in reality world history has been changed by a single hideously lucky shot. It happens. Even the best of the best should beware the amateur. If you walk around the game world without a single care of ever being defeated, the combat system is a joke. Should it be common? No. but it also shouldn't be out of the range of possibilities.

EDIT: And as far as crafting goes, I am a crafter. Love crafting, love terraforming, love world building, wouldn't give that up for anything. I came to this game with the hopes of having my cake and eat it to. Not necessarily expecting it, but enough to want to pay money to be a part of something that finally has everything I want out of a game (in concept). If they were to nix crafting in favor of combat I would be just as disappointed as I would if they implemented WURM style combat.

I believe a balance can be struck.

[maelwydd]

right now with testing it looks like gear has no effect on combat. Weapons have some effect but not much. its mostly based on your skills at this time. Preordered weapons are pretty strong so that sorta leads me to belive that they some what do affect combat.


per my tests, your results may vary, im not speaking for the devs

I tested this with a friend.

With no armour he took me out in 4 hits. I then put on an armour set (about level 30 or 40 leather but can't remember exact set) and I took 9 hits till I dropped. Armour does have an effect from what I can tell.

[Andius]

I really hope they try to stick close to the original idea during the overhaul. The whole click left to swing left, click right to swing right, sort of thing is actually really fun. They need to tighten the system up so that it works better, then either drop dodge and parry or make them more useful. It would be pretty cool if parry was replaced with some form of counter attack where if you time it right you block the blow and then land one on your opponent, and if you dodged a blow it put your opponent "off balance" which would work as a short stun. Though that will be hard to do until this game is very stable/non-laggy.

Also they need to figure out how to add and balance two handed and ranged weapons.

[wolfmoonstrike]

I really hope they try to stick close to the original idea during the overhaul. The whole click left to swing left, click right to swing right, sort of thing is actually really fun. They need to tighten the system up so that it works better, then either drop dodge and parry or make them more useful. It would be pretty cool if parry was replaced with some form of counter attack where if you time it right you block the blow and then land one on your opponent, and if you dodged a blow it put your opponent "off balance" which would work as a short stun. Though that will be hard to do until this game is very stable/non-laggy.

Also they need to figure out how to add and balance two handed and ranged weapons.

Demon Souls did all that ^^. L1 was your block, L2 was your parry with a shield. With a weapon in your left hand, one of the two functions would get replaced L1 could become your light attack or L2 could get replaced and become your heavy attack depending on the type of weapon. When you parried you would see an animation and an opening at which point you pressed R1 (your main weapon's light attack) to do some serious damage. It took some serious timing in PvE and timing +luck in PvP lol. I never did master parrying in PvP..... Hated those that did lol, because they were exceedingly difficult to beat.

Another cool thing is the weapons and stats weren't only balanced so that way a skilled player could overcome even someone pimped out but stats and weapons fed off each other. For example weapons had a rating in 4 of the stats (one had 5 but was hidden) The four stats were Magic, Faith, Dexterity, Strength. The higher their rating the more the stat did for the weapon (or shield). So if a weapon had an S in str, C in dex, E mag, -- in faith. It got a huge boost from a strength based character wielding it, dex helped somewhat, mag helped very little, and faith helps nothing.

For ranged, I think a rolling or even a sliding dodge may be helpful. Also in my original post under weapon balance I mention an idea between different kinds of weapons and even weapons of the same type and how they could be balanced. Take a look, I'd be willing to explain something if its not understandable or debate if you don't think something is quite right.

Added after 9 minutes:

I don't think anyone is saying take stats off of gear or make gear or stats a non-issue. I know I didn't.

We're saying gear/stats should be a factor, which can then be overridden by superior player skill. In other words, gear/stats will be more important to unskilled players, and less important to skilled players. Nothing more.

It's like a crappy guitar player who blames the fact that he can't play on his cheap guitar. He can't wait to get his expensive guitar, then he'll really be able to play. Or the idea that you can jump higher if you wear the best sneakers.

I think what folks are really afraid of is true competition. Some people can't deal with the fact that someone else might be better at it than they are. They need the math so badly, their game revolves around it, and without it they couldn't pvp to save their life.

Math is great when it comes to let's say masonry or crafting skills. But combat is rooted in competition. It's the one area players should be allowed to shine just because they're good at it, not because they've spent more hours in game macro grinding stats.

We shouldn't be afraid to allow the cream to rise to the top.

@hellaciouss

The Wako kid hung up his guns after being shot in the backside by a 12 year old kid. Sound familiar? That was fictional. But in reality world history has been changed by a single hideously lucky shot. It happens. Even the best of the best should beware the amateur. If you walk around the game world without a single care of ever being defeated, the combat system is a joke. Should it be common? No. but it also shouldn't be out of the range of possibilities.

EDIT: And as far as crafting goes, I am a crafter. Love crafting, love terraforming, love world building, wouldn't give that up for anything. I came to this game with the hopes of having my cake and eat it to. Not necessarily expecting it, but enough to want to pay money to be a part of something that finally has everything I want out of a game (in concept). If they were to nix crafting in favor of combat I would be just as disappointed as I would if they implemented WURM style combat.

I believe a balance can be struck.

Reason why I loved invading in Demon Souls. That game punished you for your foolishness, if you were ever overconfident, even on the PvE weaklings, you could get owned.

Also while I want a system based on skill, I certainly agree that weapons and armor should still be effective. I just would like to see a a highly skilled guy w/ low quality armor take on a low skilled guy with high quality armor and still win. But in a fight where two highly skilled warriors fight it out, the better equipped warrior should definitely have the edge. Of course luck and mood will always have effect on these fights, hubris is a great ally to your opponent.

Added after 6 minutes:

You're still suggesting one hit kills....I for one will refuse to play this game if that can happen EVER. One hit kills is the epitome of UNSKILLED.


Also, if there are no stats in this game at all on gear then entire point of crafting is pointless, absolutely pointless. There most be some contributing factor from gear, including BETTER GEAR or there is simply absolutely no reason to craft anything other then the basic crap.

Agreed on both points and I do not want to see One Hit kills, but I do want to see near death kills. Catch someone sleeping? Devastating damage. Parry and riposte? devastating damage. Just for a couple of examples lol.

[Andius]

As a leathercrafter, I feel the effect of weapons and armor should be light. Personally if a full set of armor only gave say 10-20% damage reduction, I would be fine with that. I feel a top PVPer should earn their place at the top, not by gear or grinding, but skill and strategy.

[orious13]

Demon souls has the parry/block, but parrying is almost useless with the slight lag problems. I wanted a parry class and it was very hard to make that viable at slvl 100 +. PvE was easy 80% of the time. There's a lot of shield+2H... and ignore shield weapon users... and my bro's faith+mirdain hammer rocked (I forgot what alot of the weapons were called). I was kind of disappointed that there wasn't as much end game viable choices for combat as I wanted for the pvp. It did take skill though. I even had a dagger guy that could only win a fight via backstabs... it was so rewarding lol, but so difficult. Just waited for mages to firestorm or whatever and they'd be out of luck.

[Hodo]

I havent replied to this thread, but about the Lock on system.

AH HELL TO THE NAW!!!

That has to be the dumbest thing since, the Smart Car.

If you want a good twitch combat system go with a Mount & Blade combat system. There is no lock on, shields and equipment actually get in the way, and solid objects will stop your weapon. Great system its closest to the real thing as your going to get. Its so good that even Mortal Offline has attempted it.