Suggested combat system for the overhaul

[wolfmoonstrike]

double post, please delete if possible mods.

[Trenchfoot]

What RM said. ^^

And frankly, I did stop reading at lock-ons. It's symbolic of everything I hate about games that do all the work for you. I'd rather read a book than watch two calculators do battle. And further I would be dead set against any feature that takes the skill of the player out of their hands. Hitting what you are aiming at manually is a skill. Some got it, others just need practice. This is why we love MnB style combat. I takes real effort and real skill.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Hmm you make some damn good points Morgan.

One of the reasons I did suggest a lock-on was to offset lag. Also like I said before if done right you couldn't just sit there and bash your button to win. In demon souls it took timing, active tactics, MP/endurance management, and preparation to win; if you were an invader anyway. I also disagree that it would have no place in a PvP setting since demon souls pulled it off really well.

But with that said, I can't disagree that it would dumb down gameplay from targeting with your mouse. And I understand the fear too well and I worry that stats/equipment would have too much of an effect. Then again regardless of the battle system stats/equipment could still have too much of an effect. Another reason though why I'm drawing so heavily from demon souls is it took a lot of skill and I won quite a few fights when I was out manned, and out gunned(also got my ass kicked other times....rolling off cliffs suck).

What if the weapons hurt everybody around you that got hit by the weapon swing? Regardless if they were friend or foe. So that way you couldn't just run in and kill a guy, you'd likely have to layer it out so you didn't hurt your own people.

Well even if lock-on may be a bad idea I'd still rather see a different dodge system than what we currently have lol. A couple rolls here or there would be nice.

Added after 5 minutes:

What RM said. ^^

And frankly, I did stop reading at lock-ons. It's symbolic of everything I hate about games that do all the work for you. I'd rather read a book than watch two calculators do battle. And further I would be dead set against any feature that takes the skill of the player out of their hands. Hitting what you are aiming at manually is a skill. Some got it, others just need practice. This is why we love MnB style combat. I takes real effort and real skill.

Don't blame you for it, I'd hate to see two calculators fight it out too. I also understand my post is quite long(sorry) but it doesn't revolve around lock on. I believe there are other good ideas in the post and may help you understand some of my points about a lock on. The last thing I would want to see, is the game be about completely be about the gear/stats....but it already seems quite dependent on stats. 90 agi/str/fortitude anyone?

[Trenchfoot]

@ WolfMoonStrike

Play MnB until you get good at it and you'll understand instantly why it's so popular here. Because in MnB skill can and often does override even the best of gear.

[wolfmoonstrike]

@ WolfMoonStrike

Play MnB until you get good at it and you'll understand instantly why it's so popular here. Because in MnB skill can and often does override even the best of gear.

Already have, already good. Great game. Hands down great game. I was only suggesting this as an alternative lol. I honestly don't believe that this suggestion would be taken as a whole, but if parts of it made it in I think it could enhance even an MnB system.

[wolfmoonstrike]

Like I said, Demons Souls is a great game, so I can see why you'd find inspiration in it. I just don't agree that it translates well into MMO pvp. It's not like you get 30 vs 30 battles in that game; most combat is 1v1. There are things about it that do translate really well, though, as you mentioned.

From my experience you need certain elements to make good action-based combat. Players need to ultize their skill in timing, positioning, range, stamina conservation and commitment. (By commitment I mean that making an attacking makes you vulnerable until you recover your animation.) To make good group combat, you have to give players the ability to use terrain, cover and some degree of formations to their advantage. And, of course, friendly fire is a must if group combat is to be anything other than a zerg fest.

Yeah to tell the truth I was worried about how some of the mechanics would translate into an MMO. I certainly can't disagree that you'd need formations and if you weren't able to utilize terrain I'd be devastated regardless of the combat system lol.I think committing to an attack would be a great to see since that would (hopefully) think about timing and how they attack, regardless of combat system . Actually if they didn't put in lock on but made sure that timing, position, range, stamina conservation, and commitment was all in I'd be very happy.

There is/was a lot in demon souls that I'd kill to see in an MMO, and lock on wasn't really the important one lol. I think the balance between combat styles was way more important. I never felt like I need to be a certain way to win in Demon's Souls.

[Belight]

I see the biggest flaws in your suggestion as being your concepts of a weapon stopping when hitting an object and weapon parrying.

You see, that requires every weapon to have it's own hit box. That hit boxes movements must be tracked and then it's interaction with objects, players, or other weapons must also be tracked... This greatly increases the calculations needed and thus increases lag.

In most MMOs you should feel lucky to have a player hit box that registers front and back. Tab Targeting games typically only register a hit. Something like DarkFall only tracks front and back hits. It doesn't even have the addition of head hitboxes.

While I do think that multiple hit boxes, like what MO tried (Pretty sure it didn't work out to well performance wise), is the future of MMOs... I don't think it is the realistic future of Xsyon.

But we can dream, right?

[Hellaciouss]

What RM said. ^^

And frankly, I did stop reading at lock-ons. It's symbolic of everything I hate about games that do all the work for you. I'd rather read a book than watch two calculators do battle. And further I would be dead set against any feature that takes the skill of the player out of their hands. Hitting what you are aiming at manually is a skill. Some got it, others just need practice. This is why we love MnB style combat. I takes real effort and real skill.

Now I am not agreeing with the OP, but from all the MnB combat videos I have seen...everything seems to go down in...1 hit...how is that skill, at all?

[Asmos]

Have no desire to see a Lock-On mechanic in game.

Like to...
- know what Armed Combat is for? Sounds like Tactics from UO.
- see all the Weapon Types and Skills in game.
- have the combat box enhanced. Weapon/Arm distance is not correct.
- see there be fast to slow weapons of each type.
And to top it all off.. NO LAG WHILE IN COMBAT!!!

Once all this is done then we should be talking about how to improve PvP.

[Trenchfoot]

Now I am not agreeing with the OP, but from all the MnB combat videos I have seen...everything seems to go down in...1 hit...how is that skill, at all?

Sometimes it's fast, other times it long, and sometimes it's just pure luck. The point is that it's a skill YOU as the player learn, and not a statistic that the character learns. Your combat skills don't automatically appear just because you get another point in some skill (while it may effect the odds somewhat). Your combat skills appear when you as the player learn them. You can't grind them up out of nothing by getting more points on your character sheet. You must actually learn them by practice and experience (real experience, not experience points).

And that's what I love about the MnB system. That when you become a good sword fighter, it hardly matters what your character sheet says, you're still a good sword fighter. And things like level, stats, gear, etc. become less and less of a factor in a fight as you get better. So that when you learn to feign, parry, dodge, block, strike, even if you re-roll your toon you still retain those skills as a player.

Now I don't care how they do the mechanics of it necessarily. It's not that I want combat here to even look anything like MnB. I'm not saying anything like 'Clone MnB'. MnB is just a good example of the things I describe above. I honestly don't care how they get there, but I would really like to see a combat system with the aspect I described above. Where levels and gear and stats play less of a critical role in success than player skill does.

We've all seen the level 20 run up and wale on the level 80 and the level 80 just stand there unaffected. When stats/levels/gear become the primary factor in combat, you're not fighting at all, a calculator is. And that's really the only reason I tout MnB, because it's the best example of breaking that mold that I know of.

It's the difference between being a good fighter because your stats/gear says you're a good fighter, and ACTUALLY BEING a good fighter.

If they can capture the essence of this, I'd play this game until the sun explodes.

EDIT: Just to clarify. I'm not saying stats/gear shouldn't matter at all. I'm saying that stats/gear shouldn't decide empirically. That out of two equally skilled swordsman, stats/gear could come into play. But also that an unskilled swordsman with the highest stats and the very best gear has very little chance against an expert swordsman with beginner stats and starter gear.

'Expert' being a title you earn through real practice and experience, not a title you grind up that's displayed on your character sheet.