Macro Philosophy

[Belight]

**Disclaimer: This post is not in anyway a flame for Xsyon. Just a discussion in general. I probably posted it in the wrong forum, to be honest.**

The problem does not lie with players who macro. Players will always macro. Even legit players. Humans will always take the easiest route with the biggest reward. It's a fact of nature.

Poor game design is the problem. Expecting people to follow the honor system is a pipe dream.

Don't want people to macro fishing?
Make a randomly timed "bite" that you must click to catch the fish.

Don't want people to afk swim/run?
Make the skill gain based not on the run animation but how far (Distance) you actually move.

Don't want people to macro combat skills?
Utilize proper skill caps, skill decay and systems that only allows for so many skill gains of one type in an aloted time frame.

There are hundreds of solutions if you just think and stop pointing fingers at the "bad guys". Which solves nothing and results in band-aid, time wasting, fixes like dev enforced punishment.

People only macro if the game design promotes and allows it. These are day one drawingboard issues. I just can't understand how these glaring flaws make it into game after game after game.

Discuss...


P.S. The same base philosophy also applys to griefing and to a lesser degree, exploiting.

[jumpshot]

OR you could make a game where, even if you macro, you don't get that much advantage.

And you could add things like hunger, thirst, and stat decay. You could make it so having a macro'd character doesn't make that much difference.



Your ideas are actually good, I just already don't see the problem.

Okay I see the problem - it's that people are still hung up on macros from Darkfall.

[ColonelTEE3]

The problem does not lie with players who macro. Players will always macro. Even legit players. Humans will always take the easiest route with the biggest reward. It's a fact of nature.

Poor game design is the problem. Expecting people to follow the honor system is a pipe dream.

Don't want people to macro fishing?
Make a randomly timed "bite" that you must click to catch the fish.

Don't want people to afk swim/run?
Make the skill gain based not on the run animation but how far (Distance) you actually move.

Don't want people to macro combat skills?
Utilize proper skill caps, skill decay and systems that only allows for so many skill gains of one type in an aloted time frame.

There are hundreds of solutions if you just think and stop pointing fingers at the "bad guys".

People only macro if the game design promotes and allows it. These are all day one drawingboard fixes. I just can't understand how these glaring flaws make it into game after game after game.

Discuss...


P.S. The same base philosophy also applys to griefing and to a lesser degree, exploiting.

I agree the problem is not in the players but in game design. Where i stray from your examples is less focused on solutions of treating the symptoms of the problem (like having to be attentive to an already monotonous fishing process due to macro-interrupters), and more focused on treating the problem itself (eliminating the need to macro in the first place). I've heard a few of the guys in Anvil say this a few times now and its gotten into my head now; if people are macroing, its because there is a grind to be grinded(ground?). Take away the grind and let people max out or cap out on skills within a few days and suddenly macroing will disappear because it no longer is giving competitive players the edge they're looking for. You touched on this with your example of skill caps and skill decay.

As long as we're allowed free reign to work up as many skills as we want with no repercussions, and as long as those skills take a fair amount of time to grind and give us (the player population) any advantage whatsoever, there shall be macroing.

[jumpshot]

if people are macroing, its because there is a grind to be grinded(ground?). Take away the grind and let people max out or cap out on skills within a few days and suddenly macroing will disappear because it no longer is giving competitive players the edge they're looking for.

This sounds wierd, and I refused to admit it to myself for a while... but I like grinding. I like to watch the little numbers get bigger. Also, I'm not the only one.

If I didn't want my character to progress (or wanted it to be superfast), I'd play a game without character progression. There's plenty of them.

[Belight]

I can agree with both your points, however you have to be careful not to remove character progression. Without "some" grind then we might as well all start maxed.

I think there is a middle ground, however.

Really I think the problem is when it starts to "feel" like a grind. Devs need to get more creative in building their basic system so that it promotes progression yet delivers it in a behind-the-scenes way that the player wont even notice enough to make them use macros. Then you can couple that with systems that don't allow for macroing and the fact that a fully developed character wont greatly over power a new character, it simply opens up more options for vets.

For instance a vet character shouldn't exactly do more damage than a noob, but they should have more styles and abilities and utility to survive in the world. It's incentive to progress, but it's not creating a power gap. I liked MOs philosophy that combat skills progress quickly (So you are PVP viable without grind), and the real "grind" comes in the form of being the best crafter, unlocking recipies or clothing options, character education, and honing a trade or making your niche in the world.

I like to think about it like this, if I punch you and a UFC fighter punches you. We'll both probably knock you out, but the UFC guy is going to look much better doing it, be less fatigued, and also know different styles of punches and probably hurt his hand less. However, the end result is fairly similar.



Also I think devs need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to resource harvesting.

I have alot of ideas about crafting too, but they are too scattered and vast to post here.

[Belight]

QUIT WASTING YOUR TIME POSTING AND MOVE ONTO MY TOTEM BELIGHT! You can macro there all you want, promise.

I haven't even logged into the game. Been waiting for some improvements and the "launch dust" to settle. I do intend to jump in your teamspeak sometime soon though.

[jumpshot]

For instance a vet character shouldn't exactly do more damage than a noob, but they should have more styles and abilities and utility to survive in the world. It's incentive to progress, but it's not creating a power gap.

I actually think you're on to something here. I like it!

Despite what anyone may say about the rest of it, DCUO had some good ideas. First, if you were actually skilled and understood the combat you could win a 1v1 vs ANYONE, regardless of level. Second, they had a FUCKING TON of clothes/looks/accessories. Some were easy to get, some were hard to get. Even if you don't like playing dressup (and quit lying - you do) some of these items had status attached to them because of their difficulty to acquire. Whatever, my point is... ya... there can be stuff to grind out that doens't equate to 1 shotting enemies and making combat unbalanced.

Although along those lines, I'm still not convinced that having a "maxed out toon" is even that much of an advantage in Xsion. 15 points of Agility seems to make a ton more difference than 100 points of running or swimming.

[Belight]

I actually think you're on to something here. I like it!

Despite what anyone may say about the rest of it, DCUO had some good ideas. First, if you were actually skilled and understood the combat you could win a 1v1 vs ANYONE, regardless of level. Second, they had a FUCKING TON of clothes/looks/accessories. Some were easy to get, some were hard to get. Even if you don't like playing dressup (and quit lying - you do) some of these items had status attached to them because of their difficulty to acquire. Whatever, my point is... ya... there can be stuff to grind out that doens't equate to 1 shotting enemies and making combat unbalanced.

Although along those lines, I'm still not convinced that having a "maxed out toon" is even that much of an advantage in Xsion. 15 points of Agility seems to make a ton more difference than 100 points of running or swimming.

I too was fairly impressed with DCUO in that regard. I won 1v1s against people up to 15 lvls higher than me. It's due to their combat system that heavly penalises the button masher. However it's extreme lack of RPG elements made me lose interest very quickly, but that's a debate for another thread.

[Mizzlexx]

Or you could actually try playing a game. I've never macroed i dont pay for a game so my computer can play it for me i pay for it to enjoy my time and relax at the end of the day. Honestly if ur gonna let a macro program play the game for you and spend a few hours writing a script so you can be lazy then just make it easier for everyone and go play an easy game like WoW or rift. Of course theres really no point in me arguing because there will always be macroers. I do blame the players not the game because you could just play the game you dont have to macro and its sad that the game is even thought to be blame on this matter it is the players decision. IMO ban them devs take their 40$ contribution and after you ban them post in on the forums as a warning put some fear into players eyes the more you catch the less there will be, but then again there will still be tht group of players that try to.

[Belight]

IMO ban them devs take their 40$ contribution and after you ban them post in on the forums as a warning put some fear into players eyes the more you catch the less there will be, but then again there will still be tht group of players that try to.

Yeah, that's exactly why people play games, to have "fear put into their eyes". Geeeeze. Your mentality is the same one that has America wasting billions to imprisioning it's population. You're offering band-aid solutions that are resource and labor intensive and at the end of the day solve nothing. In my opinion fear is not an acceptable solution to any issue.

Look at the root of the problem, and please try to remember.... It's a game. No one should ever be punished for playing a game. You sound like a fucking Nazi, dude.

Just becasue you don't think macroing is "playing the game" doesn't mean that others don't. Macros aren't magic. Some people enjoy writing the scripts and tweaking them and seeing the fruit of that labor. That's a game to them, and that's fine. I'm against macroing, yes, but I'm not going to condem those people as "bad guys who deserve punishment or deserve to lose their money". I'm going to instead, look at the root of the issue and come up with creative and effective solutions.

And for the record, I've never macroed... Not even in my time in DarkFall.