Macro Philosophy

[ColonelTEE3]

The problem with saying that bad programming or development choices is the reason why people macro, is like saying the reason people steal or commit a crime, is because of bad security, or poorly designed store isles, etc. The point being, it doesn't matter how much you try to prevent something, someone will find a way around the normal route.

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.

[Belight]

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.

That's beautiful! Discussion like this is what I hoped for in this thread. Not to say that others are not doing their part and contributing, but I generally disagree with them!

It's interesting to think of crime as innovation in that regard. I would not want to take it too far and actually condone crime, but from an animal perspective it truly is a form of innovation and necessity. It becomes even more true, in my opinion, when you bring it into the realm of MMOs. As you can easily say that macroing, exploiting, or hacking are primarily (outside our little game universe) victimless crimes committed by people who in all other aspects of life, may be completely law abiding and functioning members of society. That is why I am strongly against "punishing" these people. Primarily when the punishment is something happening inside the entertainment industry. "Entertainment" being the key word! Now don't get me wrong, I understand the game companies have a right to defend their property, but again, I think there are more creative solutions available that would be more beneficial to said companies and communities.

[jumpshot]

Well done ColonelEE3. +1 I'm smarter now

[Larsa]

... Players will always macro. Even legit players. Humans will always take the easiest route with the biggest reward. It's a fact of nature. ...

Sorry, no, it's not a fact of nature. If it were every player would macro but that's far from reality, only certain players macro, thus it cannot be a fact of nature, unless you claim that players that do not macro arent't human.

Maybe, for you, it's natural to macro but that tells us more about you than about the human race.

[ifireallymust]

That's where you're dead wrong. The comparison being made here is a system that we interact with is creating circumstances and environments that foster or possibly (in extreme cases such as Darkfall) necessitate illegitimate means of self advancement. In the case of reality -- most burglaries, theft, property crime and arson is acted out due to economic factors.

Robert Merton had some very insightful words to say regarding the cause of crime and this is a very good comparison to why macroing exists in xsyon (and other games). Merton's theory summed up and simplified was that Culture A has certain goals and ways of exemplifying status and success. He coined the concept of structural strain which is when these goals a culture has are unrealistic to certain groups in a society. The culture over-emphasizes attaining and having these status symbols (wealth, money in real life -- high levels, great power in mmos), but they do not emphasize enough the legitimate means to acquiring it (education, a steady job -- spending hours grinding and working on a character). The result is a strain between what society says is success, and what some groups of people are able to attain (lack of opportunities irl -- in the case of mmos; not enough time to game for hours due to a job or family).

Crime, then, is what Merton calls innovation - which is the acceptance of the cultural goals and status of success, but the rejection of the legitimate means to acquiring it. In real life, this is where economically motivated crime comes in. In game, this is where macroing comes in. The system has perpetuated this exchange of reactions and the end result.

There's some Criminology 101 for ya.

Here's a reality check 101 for ya:

At least many criminals are committing crimes for the sake of survival. Even gold farmers are often supporting themselves and their families by wrecking MMOs for everyone else.

But macroers are just cheating so they can run around and one-hit everyone by the end of launch week. Then they get together to giggle with their friends about how OP their macroed up, sad little excuse for a toon is.

[Kinslayer]

Take away the grind and let people max out or cap out on skills within a few days and suddenly macroing will disappear because it no longer is giving competitive players the edge they're looking for. You touched on this with your example of skill caps and skill decay.

For the love of God, don't do this. MO tried this, people maxed out their skills in the first week, and left the game by the forth week due to utter boredom. You need the grind to keep you busy and playing, keep you interested. The reward of skill gains are much sweeter when you've earned them.

[Surly]

For the love of God, don't do this. MO tried this, people maxed out their skills in the first week, and left the game by the forth week due to utter boredom. You need the grind to keep you busy and playing, keep you interested. The reward of skill gains are much sweeter when you've earned them.

rofl

i don't want to let the cat out of the bag or anything, but people didn't leave mortal because there wasn't enough grind.

[ColonelTEE3]

Here's a reality check 101 for ya:

At least many criminals are committing crimes for the sake of survival. Even gold farmers are often supporting themselves and their families by wrecking MMOs for everyone else.

But macroers are just cheating so they can run around and one-hit everyone by the end of launch week. Then they get together to giggle with their friends about how OP their macroed up, sad little excuse for a toon is.

Well with a statistic like 'at least many', how could i not think you don't know what you're talking about. It looks like my post just went right over your head, maybe next time sunshine.

[Kinslayer]

rofl

i don't want to let the cat out of the bag or anything, but people didn't leave mortal because there wasn't enough grind.

LMAO, too true, but grinding of the gold kind. But there is a game that bred boredom and disappointment, I would hate to see the same happen here. Keep the grind, its not over the top in this game.

I could give a shit if others macro, as long as game mechanics allow personal ability to come into the equation, well, when speaking about combat anyway. With twitch based systems its not all about skill levels, its about personal skill and ability also. If you suck at twitch combat, you suck regardless of how high you macro'd your skills. If you suck that bad that you feel the need to macro your skills, well, poor you. As for crafting, eh, whats the hurry? We'll all have them maxed out sooner or later.

[boomer0901]

That is too, true I've never had to cheat or macro in any game i've played, it's not human nature. Everyone wants to win, just some of us aren't willing to cheat to do it. If I lose a fight because someone else cheats, and that player thinks they are uber leet, super macroed skill lutz, 1337 or whatever you dumbass's say these days. You're really not good at pvp you're good at cheating/working the system, not something I'd be proud of, but whatever keeps your self esteem up I guess. But talent isn't one of them.