The Best way to handle macroers

[Dirt]

did i hurt there feelings? hit a little close to home?

[Belight]

This thread just keeps getting better and better!

[mrcalhou]

So until it's fixed, what should be done about macroing? Which of the 3 options do you promote? Or do you want the server taken down until it is fixed?

I don't really care.

[ifireallymust]

Is this intelligent? .... Push button 3 one time only and watch your skill maximize in front of your eyes!.......
Could we have this implemented please because im bored and spent my whole allowance on this dumb crafting game. Sounds reasonable to me. Oh, and take away safezones.
I'm used to getting everything i want right friggin now and i bought this cool keyboard where i can play my game still after bedtime and mom does'nt even know! LOL!!!!!!!! I'm level 98 and you guys suk! LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Shoulda seen how tough i was in Darkfall, you pansies SUK!!! This game suks!!!!! LOLOL.....!!!!!
I gotta stay off these forums, man. You guys might check out WWIIonline forums, those people set a great example over there.

Years ago, when I was a young and naive idealist, oh, more than a decade ago, really, I called up a major clothing company to ask if their clothing was made in sweatshops. Much to my dismay, the person I was transferred to was quite a bit better versed in logic and debate than I was. She asked me to define sweatshop, please. When I muttered something vague about child labor and poor working conditions and low pay, she wanted me to tell her at what age someone was old enough to work (in my state you can work part time at age 15) and asked me to specify what working conditions would qualify a place of employment as a sweatshop, and what country was I thinking of and what pay rate? And of course, in the end she assured me her company does not allow their clothing to be made in sweatshops, and I gave up and took her word for it. I was quite embarassed by the time the call ended. A little angry, too. What had happened?

What happened is, the representative for the company didn't allow me to state my question in general terms. She wanted specifics, and I couldn't provide them, because I hadn't done the right research.

What has happened in this thread is, people have stated in general terms excuses for why macroing shouldn't be punished, and have never actually been pinned down even on whether it should be allowed vs whether it should be prohibited but not punished. Which makes the issue very difficult to debate.

So thanks anyway, but I'll stick around this forum. Because even though I know to never argue in general terms and never allow my opponents to, I'm a bit out of practice, and these guys are pretty good at giving everyone the run around. Of course, now that I've gotten them to specifics, most of them have fallen back into troll mode. Which means I've won the debate. I'm quite enjoying myself.

[Belight]

Yeah, you win. If by win you mean you're so dense that people have stopped bothering to talk to you in any reasonable manner because it's a waste of time.

Wow, some people...

[ifireallymust]

Did you actually do this? lol You could have just looked at the 'Made In ..." label and discovered the answer yourself, captain of the debate club.

I did actually do this. Perhaps I should have just assumed everything not made in the US, Canada, or Western Europe was made in a sweatshop, eh?

[Dirt]

I'll keep coming back to these forums just to read your input, Ifireallymust, you clearly have the usual suspects on high alert. So much debate and complaint on these forums and you always keep calm while teaching some of these folks. I'm guilty of posting out of emotion sometimes and in my opinion, inappropriate actions in life and in game should suffer consequence, macroing included. For me it's a moral issue, even if it is just a game. The only easy way for me to understand the sort of folk who choose the shady way of doing things is to label them as shady. Then treat them as such. I wont debate with them, i'll treat them like shady people.

[ifireallymust]

I'll keep coming back to these forums just to read your input, Ifireallymust, you clearly have the usual suspects on high alert. So much debate and complaint on these forums and you always keep calm while teaching some of these folks. I'm guilty of posting out of emotion sometimes and in my opinion, inappropriate actions in life and in game should suffer consequence, macroing included. For me it's a moral issue, even if it is just a game. The only easy way for me to understand the sort of folk who choose the shady way of doing things is to label them as shady. Then treat them as such. I wont debate with them, i'll treat them like shady people.

Thanks, Dirt! But you're wrong about me. If only I did always keep calm. Depending on the issue, I let emotion drive far more often than I should.

While logic and morals actually mean nothing when it comes to real issues (which are always settled by those who control the mean guys with the guns) I enjoy logical debate as much as I enjoy a good game of chess. And I don't like it when I consider my opinion to be correct from both a moral standpoint (which is to a great extent an emotional concept) and from a logical standpoint, yet still find my opponents too slippery to pin down. It means I'm doing something wrong. It took me way too many posts to realize that the problem was an ill-defined discussion being held by people who have no interest in defining it sharply. Unlike some of the pvp debates, which eventually led to some agreement between me and other players, this issue isn't likely to have any middle ground, and the reason why is exactly the word you used. It's shady.

[Deacon]

this subject is moot....the afk macroers have already done the deed ...now they would just be closing barn door, after horses have left.

[Belight]

It took me way too many posts to realize that the problem was an ill-defined discussion being held by people who have no interest in defining it sharply. Unlike some of the pvp debates, which eventually led to some agreement between me and other players, this issue isn't likely to have any middle ground, and the reason why is exactly the word you used. It's shady.

Since you keep trying to go on about how ill-defined my arguments are, I figured I'd make it easy for you. Below is an example of how time after time I've offered a number of well defined solutions and reiterated my points over and over, yet you've apparently decided to over look them for the sake of your own "victory".

How about we stop dreaming up prison solutions and ways to punish one another and actually dream up some good and creative game designs that would stop macroing at it's source?

My solution is not to accept macroing, but rather to understand it, to understand it's reason and cause and to address those accordingly. I.E. designing well thought out game mechanics that discourage the need for macroing.

Lets take fishing as an example. Instead of click.... Wait.... Click....

Why not click... use move controls to jerk the rod, temp the fish, etc... Then upon a randomly timed bite you have to click and do a command to real teh fish in. Bam! Fishing is now more fun, interactive, and does not easily allow macroing.

You see, I'm arguing that it's a ridiculous concept to expect the devs to create a police force to hunt down and punish their player base. People who, mind you, payed for the game, use it for entertainment, and in all other aspects of life may be completely honest and functioning members of society who don't deserve to lose their hard earned money.

I think the dev's time and money would be better spent creating fun and creative game designs that remove the need and ability to macro. Is that so crazy?

I personally do not macro, ever, not even in DarkFall. Though I completely understand why people do. It's not fun to click the same button over and over for a shallow and half assed harvesting system. it's also boring to get your skill maxed by shooting 500,000 mana missles. And so on and so forth.

Why not look at why players macro, where they macro, what kind of games they macro in, and find the weak points in the games we play and improve those points?

Which is more logical?

A. Creating a police force for a video game that must be paid a salary while operating for the duration of the game's life, they also must research issues, send out e-mails, double research issues of dispute, while requiring many people and tons of man hours to ban accounts and reduce their own income.

B. Some development time and one patch that fixes the game feature(s) so it is not macro friendly.

The game is barely playable. The devs need to put their attention into fixing the vitals. Then they can hopefully flesh out and improve their features and get the skill cap/decay in and if they are smart, they will do this in a way that restricts the ability to macro.

They certainly don't need to be dumping money and man power into reducing their subscriber base.... Thus I do not agree with OP that policing is the best way to stop macroing. To be honest, it should have been addressed in the game's initial concepts, then there wouldn't be an issue now but it seems it wasn't, so my opinion is that the devs best bet moving forward is to safe guard their current game systems and get creative with their upcoming ones.

Sounds detailed enough to me... But then again I lack logic, right?

So the bottom line is this.

- Policing and banning people takes time and money. These devs don't have that. So it's not a reasonable solution.
- Devs should use their time and money to fix the features instead of wasting it on punishing people and reducing their own subscriber base.
- Reworking a few systems and crafts is a much better use of their time and money.
- They can save even more time and money by making macro deterring systems for their future features as well.

Therefore, I think your plea to ban macroers is detrimental to this games survival because of the resources it will consume from the company. The solution you're asking for is unrealistic.