Safe Zone/Free Zone ala Tribal Creeds

[MrDDT]

3. Allow players to form their own nations/alliances, with the ability to retaliate. ie. If one of you attacks one of us, you pass along the right for all of us to attack any of you (and your crafters). Also through this mechanism players would be able to establish their own ideals, laws, and customs. A warring nation that recruits and actively protects crafters (a crafters haven) should be a nation to be feared on the battlefield far and above those who do not.

I agree with #1, #2, and #4.

#3 however, I don't agree with.
First off why would a tribe have to have crafters in them to be powerful on the battlefield? Couldn't you say, buy the best weapons and armor?

I sorta agree with protecting crafters (really I think you should protect the "Good" or "Innocent") with systems that want to make it so you dont attack these people over people that are looking for PVP. But really I don't see the need to have the idea that the strongest tribes on the battlefield will be ones supported with good crafters in their clans. Trade and Politics play a huge role here, I would think it wouldn't matter where the good weapons/armor/city building/labor comes from as long as its there.

I think the key is that you should allow people to play how they want, while still allowing them to mesh. Innocents that are mostly safe from warring, and evils is key to keeping the system working. This will need to have punishments for attacking innocents, Goods, and non aggressive type of people. It will need to have safe areas for newer players. It will also need to entertain people that want to play in that fashion. Now on the other hand, it will need to need to reward risky play, and the people that want to PVP. Evil actions should be bad in game but possible to do.

Xsyon once said he wants most people to be good or neutral with only a few evil. Well that means evil needs to be punished greatly to keep it suppressed. I agree with that, and I think its best for the game to do that.

Now back to the crafters (innocent non pvpers). If they made it so that killing these innocents, would punish the attacker greatly but still allow them to do it. I think that would be the key. Like the other guy said. "Is it worth it". Kinda like Darkfall now. "Do I want to take the kill count", if the guy just killed a Dragon and is running off with the loot, you betcha. But if its just a random player killing goblins, Im going to walk on by.

[Trenchfoot]

Trenchfoot, so you basically suggest crafters to:

1. be forced to join a huge tribe
2. stay at home in like 90% of their time.

In answer to number one I would say 'yes'. But I would also add not just crafters. A solo pvpr should make just as easy prey. In fact 'everyone' should highly favor safety in numbers.

As for two, again, this goes for everyone. And I would add with the ability to form nations and alliances, 'at home' as you say could cover an enormous area.

@DDT

don't see the need to have the idea that the strongest tribes on the battlefield will be ones supported with good crafters in their clans.

Not what I said. The point is that it should give a highly desirable edge.

EDIT: Also combat ability should be a commodity just like any other craft. The ability to pvp should be just as much of a provision to be bought, sold, traded as any other craft.

[findangle]

interesting ideas.. i agree with a lot of it.

some problems i see though:

1: having to convince the pvp junkies to sit around town and babysit the crafters may get boring and frustrating unless having crafters attracts pvp. having to be escorted by combat players everywhere while your going about your business hasn't really worked in eve or darkfall. it works ok in wurm i guess but in that case you literally cannot survive otherwise. I suppose this could work given the right incentive.

2: unfortunately at this point in darkfall that doesn't happen ddt.. at this point if it moves its dead. not many people care about blue or red anymore. i suppose this is because the only bad part about being red these days is you can't go into starter cities. which sort of points to incentive i guess.



I think this thread is very much on the right path. provide proper incentive for the playerbase to protect their own. an invulnerable flag will be abused by the folks playing to crush. and while i'm all in favor of playing to crush, I think eve, darkfall, wurm and HnH have shown us that when the meek get crushed continuously they go play wow and the game falls apart.


hope to see you all in there soon. this community is looking very promising.


2:

[Trenchfoot]

1: having to convince the pvp junkies to sit around town and babysit the crafters may get boring and frustrating unless having crafters attracts pvp. having to be escorted by combat players everywhere while your going about your business hasn't really worked in eve or darkfall. it works ok in wurm i guess but in that case you literally cannot survive otherwise. I suppose this could work given the right incentive.

I don't think they should have to babysit. All the pvpr would have to do is patrol, presence, and physically own their territory. Which they should do anyway if they intend to claim an area as theirs. Crafters or no crafters. For the pvprs it would be a matter of territory control, not an escort job. Unless of course they wanted to, or are hired to do just that.

Add to that the ability to build outposts, forts, trading posts, etc. And the pvprs will be a commodity for their presence in the land, not necessarily a presence at the side of every crafter. As a crafter could run to a nearby fort where they know a military presence resides. The crafters will learn where the highest activity of the pvprs in their tribe are and revolve around those areas. Then it becomes a cooperative form of teamwork by all parties performing their best skill assets normally, instead of a babysitting job.

@Jadz

I find it funny when the non-pvp crowd thinks pvprs should need crafters, but crafters shouldn't need pvprs. If crafters shouldn't ever need pvprs for safety, then pvprs should likewise never need crafters to supply them. And where does that leave us?

[Jadzia]

I find it funny when the non-pvp crowd thinks pvprs should need crafters, but crafters shouldn't need pvprs. If crafters shouldn't ever need pvprs for safety, then pvprs should likewise never need crafters to supply them. And where does that leave us?

PvPers need crafters....are you sure ? PvPers need crafted goods, but they can get it by looting as well. A PvPer is never forced to have a good relationship with a crafter if he can get what he wants by force. But even if I agree with you that a PvPer need a crafter, how does that work ? The PvPer needs something, he goes to the crafter and buys it. Takes like 5 minutes. With your suggestion a crafter would need a PvPer to guard him....all the time. Thats boring and isn't good or fun to any of them, and limits crafters big time.

@findangle:
Absolutely agree with #1. Nothing is more boring to a PvP player than to sit around for hours and watch his gatherer friend to collect some resources. If that happens at rare resource hubs thats a different question...in such a place an attack wouldn't be a rare case but something which almost always happens. To have a friend guarding you would make sense there.

[Trenchfoot]

PvPers need crafters....are you sure ?

They should. It's a matter of 'should any profession be worth anything to anyone else?'. You agree that your chosen specialty should be necessary to those who don't perform the same role correct?

PvPers need crafted goods, but they can get it by looting as well. A PvPer is never forced to have a good relationship with a crafter if he can get what he wants by force.

Sure if the pvpr wants to be poor and live like a bandit in the hills and eat pourage and live in a lean to. Are you suggesting a crafter would carry around high level gear that a pvpr could use profitably? Then if you say 'Well they'll just form raiding parties to supply themselves on loot alone.'. I say fine. This is where nations/alliances/groups of tribes can become involved and we'll see how long they're able to keep that going. Every time you try to make this profitable you make more enemies, which makes it viable only in the short term.

But even if I agree with you that a PvPer need a crafter, how does that work ? The PvPer needs something, he goes to the crafter and buys it. Takes like 5 minutes.

Pvprs don't just need crafted goods, they need better crafted goods. There's a difference between sustaining yourself by visiting the crafter 8 times a day and having one under your wing who gets you the 'good stuff' in exchange for the safety and provision to pursue their craft.

This not only applies to gear, but to food, housing, clothing, and generally everything you don't have time to fool with 20 times a day if you want to pvp or craft for that matter. There should be a huge difference between fishing to feed yourself several times a day and a hot meal prepared by skilled cooks that holds you over for a much longer period. The cooks who in turn got their food from the farmers, the farmers who wore out their tools, the tool makers who need clothes, the tailors who need housing to be comfortable enough to produce high quality goods from the architects. All these things need to fit together and rely upon one another for a chosen profession to be valuable. In short, if you're lacking a dedicated professional, your society should suffer the consequences of that lack (including pvp).

With your suggestion a crafter would need a PvPer to guard him....all the time. Thats boring and isn't good or fun to any of them, and limits crafters big time.

Not all the time. But the pvpr would need to provide an active presence in their territory. If I am a raider and I know the pvprs of a tribe are highly active in an area, it would give me pause to consider the profit vs. loss of raiding that area. And on the level of warfare, pvprs who try to supply their war efforts thru loot, should make a considerably easier target than a tribe who has in house professionals. This would also create more effort involved in warfare. ie. To wage war, not only do we need an attack force but we need a defense force at the same time to protect our supply.

So yes, people should be 'forced' to work together in exchange for a higher rate of success/comfort/time to pursue your chosen profession. This should go for everyone and for everything you're not. Master craftsmanship should generally take place where people work together to provide the things that give professions (pvp included) the time to pursue their craft exclusively. So I'm not just talking about pvpr vs. crafter needs. I'm talking about the needs of all professions as a whole, to desire what they lack. Whether it's warriors or cooks.

EDIT: Name one profession that should not need any other professions in order to better their own profession. It's a matter of gaining more time to be the best at what you are by working together with others who aren't what you are.

[MrDDT]

PvPers need crafters....are you sure ? PvPers need crafted goods, but they can get it by looting as well. A PvPer is never forced to have a good relationship with a crafter if he can get what he wants by force. But even if I agree with you that a PvPer need a crafter, how does that work ? The PvPer needs something, he goes to the crafter and buys it. Takes like 5 minutes. With your suggestion a crafter would need a PvPer to guard him....all the time. Thats boring and isn't good or fun to any of them, and limits crafters big time.

PVPers need to build good relations with crafters (Good PVPers at least) because most good PVPers have special high end needs for gear.
I look at Darkfall, and I would almost never find the gear I want off another player. First off the players at my level would likely die rarely, and if they did die it would likely be split between many people. As thats how I normally die to many people.

That's not even counting the fact that its used gear. As a good PVPer you want top end gear, in top shape. Which either makes you have an alt for crafting your high end needs, a great contact with a crafter, or a great crafter in your guild/tribe.

This isnt even counting the fact what if they need crafters repair walls during battles? Or maybe make sieges on the fly at other battles.


I agree with Trenchfoot. Its not about standing around "guarding" a player. Its controlling your area. You are out hunting, or PVPing and you are protecting the crafter. Sure you are not 10FT from them standing watch, but if the call for help goes up, you are dropping what you are doing to protect your village and weaker members. That's how protection works. Also you protect by showing force. I were a PVPer protecting, I would kill others and they would know "Dont mess with that tribe, they have good players" etc.


I also look forward to the day of trading merchant road type of stuff. Say as a crafter you get an order from a tribe 2 or 3 zones away for swords and armor. Well they nor you can just easy get the good to them. You will need protection or an export agreement with an exporter tribe, who will need to either have their own protection or use your tribes (or the buyers tribes) for protection.
Sure right now this isnt in, because of the "Respawn" with all your items issue. But I expect that to change.


Ive played many games, and PVPers need good crafters. Most of the time the problem is that crafters tend not to need PVPers due to safe zones and such. Darkfall and EVE are ones where it shows otherwise.

[Jadzia]

Not all the time. But the pvpr would need to provide an active presence in their territory. If I am a raider and I know the pvprs of a tribe are highly active in an area, it would give me pause to consider the profit vs. loss of raiding that area. And on the level of warfare, pvprs who try to supply their war efforts thru loot, should make a considerably easier target than a tribe who has in house professionals. This would also create more effort involved in warfare. ie. To wage war, not only do we need an attack force but we need a defense force at the same time to protect our supply.

So yes, people should be 'forced' to work together in exchange for a higher rate of success/comfort/time to pursue your chosen profession. This should go for everyone and for everything you're not. Master craftsmanship should generally take place where people work together to provide the things that give professions (pvp included) the time to pursue their craft exclusively. So I'm not just talking about pvpr vs. crafter needs. I'm talking about the needs of all professions as a whole, to desire what they lack. Whether it's warriors or cooks.

EDIT: Name one profession that should not need any other professions in order to better their own profession. It's a matter of gaining more time to be the best at what you are by working together with others who aren't what you are.

I understand your point, Trench. This could even work in a game with high population, would never work with a low pop one. But is it good if it works ?

What I meant was that this system doesn't create a good gameplay, but a boring one. Especially for the PvPers. What you described is how real life works...police or military roam around and patrol an area, scares the criminals away thus the area stays kind of safe. But in real life the policemen don't want to fight...their goal is to avoid it. In Xsyon PvPers do want to fight, their goal is not to scare away the opponent simply by their presence.

Let's see the options:
1. a tribe can't protect their crafters, they are not strong enough: the crafters will leave the game or join a bigger tribe, the tribe falls apart.

2. a tribe is big enough to protect their area: they will grow, new players will join who have left their smaller tribe due to their failed attempt to protect them. They strongly patrol their area so no PvPer in his right mind would attack... there is no fight, or very rare. Crafters craft in peace and enjoy the game, PvPers are bored out of their mind.

So we would end up with 2-3 huge tribe controlling the whole land, they wouldn't attack each others (why would they, they have everything they need) so PvP is kind of eliminated. This system is good for crafters but makes no sense PvP-wise.

Why not to get a coded mechanic which makes the boring job for us (patrolling and guarding), and gives the opportunity the PvPers to find good fights beside trading routes or resource hubs ? Why would they stay at home for patrol where attacks hardly happens and they only waste their time roaming around doing nothing, while their luckier tribemates are out finding someone to kill ?

[MrDDT]

I understand your point, Trench. This could even work in a game with high population, would never work with a low pop one. But is it good if it works ?

What I meant was that this system doesn't create a good gameplay, but a boring one. Especially for the PvPers. What you described is how real life works...police or military roam around and patrol an area, scares the criminals away thus the area stays kind of safe. But in real life the policemen don't want to fight...their goal is to avoid it. In Xsyon PvPers do want to fight, their goal is not to scare away the opponent simply by their presence.

Let's see the options:
1. a tribe can't protect their crafters, they are not strong enough: the crafters will leave the game or join a bigger tribe, the tribe falls apart.

2. a tribe is big enough to protect their area: they will grow, new players will join who have left their smaller tribe due to their failed attempt to protect them. They strongly patrol their area so no PvPer in his right mind would attack... there is no fight, or very rare. Crafters craft in peace and enjoy the game, PvPers are bored out of their mind.

So we would end up with 2-3 huge tribe controlling the whole land, they wouldn't attack each others (why would they, they have everything they need) so PvP is kind of eliminated. This system is good for crafters but makes no sense PvP-wise.

Why not to get a coded mechanic which makes the boring job for us (patrolling and guarding), and gives the opportunity the PvPers to find good fights beside trading routes or resource hubs ? Why would they stay at home for patrol where attacks hardly happens and they only waste their time roaming around doing nothing, while their luckier tribemates are out finding someone to kill ?

I think you are only seeing part of the system.

You make all valid points. However, I believe there still should be some safe areas for people. I think even Trench said there should be. Just they should be limited on what they can make as far as high quality goes, and maybe special rare items.

I think also there should be systems in place to limit how effective "large" tribes are. Thus you will want to cull your fat off. Meaning like cost resources per member to upkeep totem while in war status, or in some areas. Or maybe like base it on active members.
Also I do not believe in the "more people = bigger area" I think more active people should = bigger area.
Im a firm believer of making the totem cost in resources. Now it doesnt have to be as in like trees, or whatever. It could be simply praying at the totem. More prayers = larger area etc. But right now we have totems that are max size even with a bunch of inactive accounts in them.

[Edit]
Also you think PVPers will be bored, but thats when trouble starts.
Things like wars, and raids, and going out and picking fights. Also when the troops get restless fights break out internally. This will cause these groups to break up and cause more strife.

[Jadzia]

I think you are only seeing part of the system.

You make all valid points. However, I believe there still should be some safe areas for people. I think even Trench said there should be. Just they should be limited on what they can make as far as high quality goes, and maybe special rare items.

I think also there should be systems in place to limit how effective "large" tribes are. Thus you will want to cull your fat off. Meaning like cost resources per member to upkeep totem while in war status, or in some areas. Or maybe like base it on active members.
Also I do not believe in the "more people = bigger area" I think more active people should = bigger area.
Im a firm believer of making the totem cost in resources. Now it doesnt have to be as in like trees, or whatever. It could be simply praying at the totem. More prayers = larger area etc. But right now we have totems that are max size even with a bunch of inactive accounts in them.

[Edit]
Also you think PVPers will be bored, but thats when trouble starts.
Things like wars, and raids, and going out and picking fights. Also when the troops get restless fights break out internally. This will cause these groups to break up and cause more strife.

That wouldn't solve the problem with 2-3 huge tribes. They would be huge because of active players, not inactive ones.

What you said about bored PvPers may be right. Its not likely though, since the game would end up with some equally strong big tribes, and they wouldn't risk to attack each others, there would be too big risk of losing. Remember, smaller tribes or soloers already left the game in this scenario or joined one of the big tribes. But even if some go out to find a fight still many of them would have to stay at home to protect the crafters...while the lucky ones who are not on duty are out having fun. Why not to have a coded mechanic which makes the boring job for us ?

And again, a system like this only works if the game has a high population. But its impossible to reach high pop with a system like this if the initial population is low.

I don't know even one game with full loot open PvP where this system (players policing everything and they are the only ones who protect non-PvPers) works. All the games who tried this have a very low population and declining, or died already. Is there a game with this system which is flourishing ?