So it seems my thread about a hacker was deleted..

[dxwarlock]

what about the statement above Virtus? there is no way to draw a "hardline" between AFK and at keyboard. Like I said how do determine if the guy macroing for 6 hours and watching TV in the same room, only glancing at the screen every few minutes to watch for tells for those 6 hours is AFK or at keyboard?

If that kind of macroing is allowed, then how is that different that someone thats in the other room watching TV 'afk" macroing?

[Sirius]

Virtus already said they're not going to give up any info on how they make their determination, because then people could game it.

Suffice it to say, if you're macroing attended but are.. inattentive.. you run the risk of a false positive. All you can really do is do your best to make sure to respond in an obviously human way if anyone sends you a tell ...

[ocoma]

if you put that in the correct context, of saying on a gaming forum that your cheating...

so if you went on a FBI forum (if one existed) and stated you was a serial killer, arrested right away with no evidence..no.
possibly investigated to see the validity of your claims to mount a case against you if needed..most definitely.

so same context applies here. stating on the forums that regulates the actions you claim, should result in at least a follow up on your claims.

and a reply to your edit, thats where the grey area that cannot be allowed comes in.
how do you determine if someone is AFK macroing, or attended? where is the line draw to "attended"..someone macroing for hours while not even touching the screen watching a movie on TV..is he AFK macroing? he can respond at any time by typing if he sees a tell...but hes not even 'ingame' hes watching a movie 5 feet away, or could be cleaning his room while macroing, or reading a book on his bed..but fully able to see green text to come reply.

. do you consider that AFK or at keyboard? where is the line drawn between the 2?

then you have the situation of someone that IS afk macroing, and getting a tell and not replying and kicked. they could claim "I was at keyboard, I just went to the restroom and missed that tell". if you allow one, you auto allow loopholes for the other to use.

We are paying for access to a virtual world. ACCESS TO A VIRTUAL WORLD. Really stop and think on this one a sec. We are not our avatars and dont physically own anything as paying customers.

AFK or attended is irrelevant. Macroing is not cheating.

Hacks are cheats pretty much by definition.

[dxwarlock]

its not a question of the method they use to find it..its the 'line' between the 2.

say a guy is AFK macroing for 15 horus while in bed..and they KNOW hes macroing, but come to check on him during the 10 minutes hes actually sitting there watching it. does that make the last 15 hours null and void?

and as above, say im 10 feet away watching TV letting my PC do all the work, but close enough to see the text, thats OK? what if im 10 feet away watching TV but a wall is in the way...thats not OK?
both cases the guy has no intention of "at keyboard' macroing it. jsut one hes smart enough to be nearby to see a tell, or a dev/guide moving him and to react.

so its really ok to AFK your ass off..long as your there to react to someone that want to check if your there, really?
so its not the AFK macroing thats not allowed, in reality..its the inability to react to someone checking if your at keyboard...

so take my situation into account, I work from home on the PC all day, so by those rules, I am now allowed to macro all day on my second monitor, not even ingame myself..long as I can tab over to let a person know "I'm here, really I am!"...

its a slippery slope, and they are installing the slide for it now.

AFK or attended is irrelevant. Macroing is not cheating.

I believe that the majority of MMO publishers disagree with you on that one. and even here they seem to think its relevant..as hes said "at keyboard is ok..you found doing it AFK its a different story"
but hey if they want to allow "at keyboard' macroing, im at my PC 14 hours a day working..I can supply the xyson world with every item they need.
Not saying that I will or wish to play this way, but just driving home the point by allowing something, with it just being a grey area to enforce, that it invites the creative people a HUGE way to automate everything..and totally ruin the economy when trading comes into play with trade totems. give me leyway to macro, and a creative mind that does programming scripts and automation for workflow solutions for my job..I can get 10 people 'at keyboard' mass producing everything.

there is no "definition" of what makes a macro it seems either, is me macroing crafting ok..but not auto logging trees and returning them? or collecting trash or scavenging? or by what they say "macroing" is it allowed?..
TECHNICALLY you can make a macro to gather an entire junkpile and sort it..so now thats ok?
Thats what Im asking, where is this "line" to draw on whats ok to do.

hopefully they take a bit of wisdom from the other MMOs that had that 'grey' area of macroing, as the history of what happened to them...mass jumping ship of people because of the 'macroers'
I think its ironic the people coming from DF and MO complaining they left for all the people macroing skills...are now wanting macroing.

[orious13]

It all depends on how good their checks are warlock.

If the checking system isn't 100% full proof you can't really ban someone who's at their computer talking and performing funtions directly on xx second intervals every time. You will definitely get into the problem with possibly banning innocent people. Now if someone is not at their computer and they are doing that you could still be banning someone who's innocent, but the chances are higher that they aren't. This is why stopping macros and bots is so difficult. I don't know one thing about the correlation between system checking to determine macro programs or botting programs (which can be the same program), but in my eyes it's hard to convict (ban) someone from macroing beyond reasonable doubt unless you can physically see what they are doing.

The best way to combat macroing/botting is to make the game function so that it minimizes that possible advantage.

Hacking on the other hand (which is the point of this thread I think) can be found pretty easily beyond any doubts, but stopping it might be a little difficult.

[dxwarlock]

oh I agree orious, my main statement was that by saying "oh if your at keyboard its perfectly fine" opens the flood doors for 1000 loopholes to exploit that fact.
basiclly finding out whos is AFK macroing is hard enough with it not allowed at all. add in a variable of ALSO having to find out if they are AFK or not, and the amount of people caught macroing goes down DRASTICALLY. as 3/4 of the ones 'afking' it can work around the system to be at keyboard when 'really' needed.

Adding a stipulation and situation where it IS allowed, lets those that want to exploit it, ruin the game for those that are genuinely wanting to do it to cut down on at keyboard repeatability tasks.

like I said in my case, I can 'at keyboard' macro for 16 hours a day. I work 10-12 of those, and 4 of them ingame..(and a lot of my 10-12 hours of work is spent ingame standing around AFK picking my ears and looking around..tabbing over to do stuff inbetween work). now factor in that I can be doing "something" those 12 hours, andjust given the fact that I know if its allowed, I could ruin the economy and trade for 9 zones around me when economy is added, as a single sole person..worries me. for those that will do it 24-7 and get as creative at automating everything as I could.

as it causes a cascading effect, those that macro, end up forcing those that dont to take it up, to be able to compete in the game once a trade/barter system is added.

if Bobjoe next to you is 'at keyboard AFKing' 7000 bricks a day to sell, and you can do maybe 100...you end up feeling "crap its allowed, and hes doing it, I need to do it also to compete..hes selling bricks at wholesale in bulk, I cant afford to trade at that ratio unless I mass macro them also."

so just like any other MMO where macro was the standard (allowed or not) your playerbase dwindles down to those that want to stand around and macro, driving off those that want to play without macros..think of AC and el-tank. by the end it was nothing but a handful of people that wasnt even there, playing the game with macros.

not one MMO has ever even come close to making it work, why would it here?

I think the problem isn't that macros are needed, its that fact that the crafting system encourages it. if there is a problem that makes people think macros are needed, then the system needs to be tweaked to change that notion.

make crafting like SWG or... minecraft and its ovens.. instead of repeating clicking to make bricks. make it takes resources and time in an automated process. in the end it takes the same time to make the bricks, but 5000 less clicks. sure it can be macroed also..but the desire to do so is less. as its a "set and forget" process, that would take the same amount of time to complete either way. but you can go do more enjoyable things while waiting.

[Dubanka]

The best way to combat macroing/botting is to make the game function so that it minimizes that possible advantage.

that's the bottom line. hell, i'd applaud a game that included macro tools within the game framework to help players automate certain tedius processes.

macro advantage only occurs when you have a product relies tedium as a core component of it's design.

I hate macros...but more i hate games that 'require' them to be competetive...I shouldn't have to macro all my skills to max to be competitive with another player.

[dxwarlock]

that's the bottom line. hell, i'd applaud a game that included macro tools within the game framework to help players automate certain tedius processes.

macro advantage only occurs when you have a product relies tedium as a core component of it's design.

I hate macros...but more i hate games that 'require' them to be competetive...I shouldn't have to macro all my skills to max to be competitive with another player.

I also agree. ingame tools that are hard definded of "this is allowed" because you can only do whatever they deem it capable of, its 1000x time better than the approach of "well just do it with whatever tools you like, but make sure your at keyboard..ok?" as that leaves the door open for anyone to get as 'unattended" as they can desire. the level of how far they can push it is only limited to the progamming skills of the player creating the macro.

I have never had that "xyson has a bad feeling" about it feeling since I started. game issues, lag, rollbacks..sure. I mustered though them all, chin held high seeing it "growing pains". never had a bad thing to think or say about the devs, or any mistakes they are learning from..
but hearing that anyone can macro anytime they wish, to any level or degree they wish, long as they can reply to a tell, or react when moved....was a kick in the face to me of the hope that xyson would grow to a true thriving MMO. (regardless of the techniques used to tell, thats what it will boil down to..as there is no way to tell if they are in their chair, other than physically going to their house.)
I cant think of one MMO that allowed macros, that didnt fail, have people complaining of macros, or saying they left because they was tired of paying for a game just to macro. and xyson (to me) wil lfollow this path if they choose that same path. as its not the game itself that makes that situation bad. its the playerbase. and unless there is a new breed of human thats playing this than all the other MMOS that died from it. we humans will react the same way to it here in the long run.

[orious13]

They just need the skill/stat/decay or whatever system to work in a way that when you repeat a task too often it fails every time and gives 0 gain. Like a (you can't possibly make any more bricks in your condition).

It's not really a matter of telling people to not macro because you really can't stop it in many games. It's a matter of making the game itself render macroing useless. We as the community can help make this happen.

but hearing that anyone can macro anytime they wish, to any level or degree they wish, long as they can reply to a tell, or react when moved....was a kick in the face to me of the hope that xyson would grow to a true thriving MMO. (regardless of the techniques used to tell, thats what it will boil down to..as there is no way to tell if they are in their chair, other than physically going to their house.)

I'm sure he didn't mean it that way even though that's what he said.

[dxwarlock]

I hope not, Im really not wanting to try to sound like a doomsayer. and still optimistic that It just came out wrong or I misunderstood it.