What is xsyon?

[darkbladed]

Truthfully I cannot wait until the free period is over and everyone who just bitches leaves to go back to darkfall or something with oodles of pvp

[Soulwanderer]

Truthfully I cannot wait until the free period is over and everyone who just bitches leaves to go back to darkfall or something with oodles of pvp

Why's that, you looking for the game to tank due to lack of funding?

[Jadzia]

You're losing track of your own arguments, Jad.

You said the features page doesn't mention tribal war OR pvp.

Thus, even if someone accepts the crazy mental backflips that you had to go through to interpret the language to mean there is NO tribal war, you're still stuck with the fact that the features page clearly indicates PVP is part of the game.

Furthermore, you're presenting a false dilemma. Since I said that anyone who reads only the features page (and not the many forum posts) will be misled, you challenged me to show feature-page language indicating PVP is part of the game (which I did).

That's all well and good. But you're missing a crucial point: Players were entitled to rely on ANYTHING ANYWHERE where the devs said there would be PVP. But the only thing they were OBLIGATED to look at, in order to know what they were getting into, was the features page. But this still means that the devs can be held to what they said in interviews, on their web forums, etc... YET players cannot be faulted for basing their purchase decision SOLELY on the feature page.

The obligation to advertise a product accurately, unfortunately for your argument, is a single-edged sword. Thus, while mention of PVP on the feature page is sufficient to justify players' expectations that the game would have PVP, it is not necessary. QED.

Sirius, this is where the debate started:

I think we can all agree on the following:

1) The features page indicates that PVP, including tribal warfare has always been intended to be a significant part of them game, though not necessarily the central feature
2) Players had every right to rely on the feature page as an accurate description of the game, should not be blamed for any misleading information on that page, and have every right to expect that the listed features are available

You simply ignore the fact that you failed to prove that the feature page advertise PvP and tribal warfare. Everything you mentioned can be meant in a PvE system too. There is only 1 hint that is more logical in a PvP system (though it can be meant in PvE too, just imagine a player killing angels makes him evil, while killing demons makes him good), but NOTHING indicates warfare.

The devs did talk about PvP in interviews, but never mentioned tribal warfare. It was only brought up on forum, and it was always promised after Prelude. PvP is in, combat is under rework, tribal warfare will be in later just as they said. So how did they say misleading informations ?

[jokhul]

Truthfully I cannot wait until the free period is over and everyone who just bitches leaves to go back to darkfall or something with oodles of pvp

Well, I can't see NG rolling out a totally overhauled combat system before the end of the "free-period", so anyone that wants to wait for that will either have to subscribe on "good faith" or leave and come back in 6 months or so...

[Jadzia]

For about the thousandth time — most of the bullet points listed on the feature list don't work, aren't in game, or are broken. Can you agree with that? Probably not, because you wear rose-colored glasses.

I like my rose glasses, a queen deserve nothing less

Illmaculate, let me ask something. Try to put your personal feelings toward me aside. I'm honestly interested in your opinion ( no idea why though lol) and hope that you will answer frankly and honestly...when you first read the feature page, you thought it mentioned tribal warfare ?

[Phazaar]

To clear everything up:

Jadzia, (and VD+Ill) more poignant is that it's not -just- about the features list, it's about the whole website, most importantly the home page and the FAQ. The FAQ definitely states PvP+Tribal warfare, the homepage sets the user up to expect this with talk of conflict and good and evil. I for one read those three pages and bought the game, and I know dozens of others who did too (and have since left, unsurprisingly). Ignoring this though, you still lost the features page argument, so let it lie before they begin beating you round the head with quotes from this thread.

Jokhul, they're not arguing about what the game is meant to be about. I realise it's basically off-topic, but they're arguing about perceptions of a potential buyer on reading the website, because Jadzia somehow believes it couldn't lead a person to believe there is a PvP aspect.

Book, STFU. Nah, jokes, I just can't remember anything of value you've said in order to comment on it... Jokes again Okay, musn't troll. The ethnocentric card was stupid; his point was that the IMPLICATIONS of the features page were as he stated originally, and missing that is either a logical error (harsh) or more likely (and politely) a simple linguistic misunderstanding. As the son of a multi-lingual translator (14 languages, last I checked), this was the FIRST thing I was taught to expect when trying my languages out with mother-tongue speakers. It's not insulting, it's a fact of life. Just like I don't understand German/French/Scandinavian humour and everyone thinks the Turkish are creepy; translations don't often capture sentiments and implications. Hell, even the difference between US and UK english dialects can be insurmountable for native speakers! Simple anthropology/linguistics studies will tell you all you need to know that there was no ethnocentrism here; merely politeness.

VD+Ill: Great forum-warrioring in the face of adversity. You have won though, even if your opponents aren't aware of it (think of yourselves as the NVA and your opponents as the USA and you'll see what I mean ), and now we can steer this topic back on track at least a little bit.

My two cents: Xsyon isn't what it could have been, nor what it should be, yet. I hope that changes, but in the mean time, it needs to be -MUCH- clearer on the homepage that you are purchasing to support the development of a game that will be released in 6+ months. Saying 'more content added' through the 'prelude' I took to mean new technological advances as new things were rediscovered and new areas being unlocked once we had home bases set up. It is not made clear ANYWHERE just how much there is to go before the features list is even half full. In fact, for that matter, the features list -definitely- needs to be updated to say 'subject to change' and more importantly 'Supposed features'. Maybe even do a SWGEMU with it and put 'Features in' and 'Features on their way' or one step further, a rating system for how complete and 'working as intended' each feature is. It would only take an hour of dev time to do this, and would stop more people purchasing under the wrong impressions.

[Jadzia]

When I first read the feature list it wasn't the same as it is now. I'm pretty sure tribal warfare, pvp and looting were all mentioned. I don't even remember. All I know is this game was advertised with full loot pvp, territorial warfare and conquest. That's why I came here in the first place.

I wouldn't have even considered playing this game if I never got that impression.

That part of the feature page has never changed. Ok, then tell me, if you read it now as a new player, would you think it mentions tribal warfare ? This is a serious question.

[Dubanka]

Dub, no one is arguing about the game having PvP. We are arguing about the feature page only, not other threads or homepage. We all know that Xsyon has PvP (though it hasn't got tribal warfare yet), the questions is that someone who reads the feature page only could figure it out of it. And if anyone can claim that he was misled by the feature page since he thought it advertised tribal warfare.


Soulwanderer, I said that tribal warfare is not mentioned on the feature page, not anywhere.

Malivius, are you native English ? Since it seems that no one with English as a second language can have a word here

The features page specifically? really? ok. By section:

Landscape- all listed items appear to be working more or less as designed.

Resoursces- not good:
Constantly changing resources can be renewed or depleted. - depleted yes. renewed no.
Availability dependent on season and weather conditions. - Not really. grass was still grass during winter.
Resources can be claimed by tribes. - not sure of intent. Would seem to imply some degree of territorial control. currently can only claim within tribal footprint.
A large variety of resources with individual properties. Different woods, cloths and metals have properties that affect crafted items. - variety yes. affect? not sure, not way to tell...some affect color.
Scavenged items such as books can introduce knowledge of new crafts and skills. in.

Environment - items in except for:
Terrain surface affects movement.
Creatures react to adverse and favorable weather.
Weather conditions affect player actions and item durability - if these are in, i havent noticed them.

Character:
Customizable body, face and hair system.- sure.
Characters visibly gain or lose weight and muscle. - only at creation
Characters age visibly. Ageing affects character statistics.- only at creation
Statistics increase or decrease based on actions, experience injuries and age. - by action only. hardly noticeable.
Skill based system. Skills increase and decrease based on actions and experience. - sure.
Experience is gained for most player actions, not only combat, but crafting, questing, gathering and social activities. - Sure.
Levels gained will give additional points for the character to boost skills and statistics. These are in addition to normal action based skill and statistic gains and reflect what a character would be doing when not actively being played. - Sure.
Characters possess different gauges that affect the performance outcome of actions: Health, Faith, Energy, Hunger, Thirst and Encumbrance. Additional gauges including Comfort and Adrenaline boosts will be added as the game evolves. - Not complete. Gauges track, but only encumberance appears to have affect.
Character actions are tracked for Good and Evil and hidden stats such as Luck. - Not in.

Basic Actions - more or less, sure...you could potentially argue on running or strokes or whatever...but whatever. It's functional.

SKills:
Skills increase with use. - yes.
Skills decrease over time if not used. - No
Skills can be maintained and increased by using experience points. - Yes
Skills are affected by many external factors. - Not that i've noticed.
Many actions are dependant on several skills. - I guess this is referring to crafting requirign woodworking, leatherworking and weaponcraft to make a weapon. Altho it should read, many skills are dependent upon other skills...since it is the skill not the action...but ill give it a sure.
Skill increase is dependant on the character’s current level of similar skills. - not sure what that means. don't know if its in.
Over 50 skills in Combat, Physical Actions, Trade Skills, Crafts and Resource Gathering.- sure. altho combat is misleading (since combat skills are primarily just your weapon skills).

Crafts - mostly in except:
Supreme Master level of craftsmanship for those characters whose achievements top their peers.
Characters achieving the Supreme Master level of craftsmanship work with the Xsyon team to introduce a crafted item of their own design.
As they advance, craftsmen gain the abilities to repair, reinforce and improve objects.

Armor- misleading section because it's more or less marginalized by the level of the PO weapon.
Part based armor system. All parts can be crafted and customized. - sure.
Layered armor system for many possible combinations. - 2 layers. cloths and armor. really only one layer of armor. wouldnt really call it a system but sure.
Armor bulk and material affects player comfort, speed and actions. - comfort not in. speed yes. actions, not really.
Variable armor quality and durability for the same armor type. - Sure. I guess. When we can see it again. So no now, but i know it's there.
Armor parts can be enhanced based on materials used. - No.
Weapon types versus armor types. - Our testing did not support this. No.
Colored materials can be used to create thousands of different looks. - Kinda. Sometimes. Depends upon the piece and armor type.

Objects.
Found objects can be sorted for material and color - Yes. It's a hassle not a feature.
Skilled scavengers have a greater chance of uncovering rare and useful items - Sure.
Discarded objects build up to restock scrap piles. - No
Different areas yield different found objects - I haven't experienced this.
Objects degrade and decay with use and the ravages of weather and time - No.

Creatures.
No set creature spawns or re-spawns. Animals multiply based on the current creature population. Undead never truly die, or do they? - there are definite respawn points. fail.
Creatures gain experience and power, potentially evolving into legendary beings. - sure
Creatures can overrun areas or be depleted. - lol. overrun. depleted yes. only overrun occurred with guide involvement.
Creatures gravitate towards different areas based on mood and weather. - no.
Creatures driven to the outer reaches of the world mutate. - no
Creatures possess realistic loot. If you see armor or a weapon on a creature you can take it. Animals can be carved up for raw materials. - loot no. carve, yes.
Creatures are a primary resource for crafters. - yes.

Communication.
General chat based on hearing range. - no. Unless 9 zones is hearing range.
Whisper directed to specific players within range. - yes.
Town and player group chat channels. - tribe yes. group no. there is no grouping.
Help channel to contact in game Guides. - yes.
Town markets where players can place items for sale. - lol no.

Combat
Skill and statistic based combat. - not noticeable
Manual targeting, affected by abilities. - no.
Manual defense tactics including dodging, parrying and blocking. - no. or utterly pointless.
Body part targeting for critical attacks. - no.
Weapon types versus armor types. - no.
Combat permissions in tribe zones based on tribal settings. - no.
Combat will be revised during the Prelude and improved to match combat oriented games. - we'll see.

Tribes.
Players become registered members of a tribe. 10 players or more must come together to form a town. - numbers have changed but sure.
As towns increase in membership, they can claim more land and gain town abilities. - land? to a point. Town abilities? no.
Player owned protected housing. - no
Player owned protected storage. - yes
Flexible part based construction system. - yes
Custom rank system. Ranks consist of a power level and set of permissions and abilities.- yes. have not tested if ability limitations work.
Hierarchical political systems can be formed based on the rank system. - sure.
Bonuses to stats and skills when in native town. - no.
Bonuses to stats and skills for town leaders. - no.
Bonuses to players wearing tribal colors. - i wish. no.
Towns serve as centers for quests, trade, crafting, storage and interaction. - sure.
Tribes can choose tribal colors and emblems to be displayed in tribal clothing, banners and flags. - limited options. only displayed within totem selection. no.

im outta time. gotta run. based on this player's objective review of the feature list, compared to in game actions...assuming the game is runnign smoothly, without the lag spikes of release, zone crashing, sync errors, etc....based purely on list to in game, it's the game's feature advertising is misleading.

[Sirius]

Jadzia, your most recent post addressed to me is utter BS and does not merit a response, but I'll indulge one last time. The features page clearly indicates that PVP is part of the game and strongly implies that tribal warfare is as well. You have to stretch the imagination and make improbable interpretations of the language in order to come up with the mere possibility that this is not what was intended. Clearly Dubs' comment on Occam's Razor went straight over your head, or you would realize that far-fetched interpretations don't trump obvious ones. It's the other way around.

As for how you can really sit there with a straight face and look at the interviews that talk about "open PVP" and the forum notes discussing "warring tribes" and "conquest" that were put up to describe what things were going to be like on the "live" servers... with posts indicating the safezones would be removed "DURING PRELUDE", "as soon as possible, possibly within a month or two" ... and just say that all of this was OBVIOUSLY supposed to take place "after prelude", is beyond me. While the exact details of server launch changed a bit, it has been clear from the start that both PVP and tribal war have been planned from the start.. they've just had trouble figuring out how to let warlike and peaceful ppl coexist on the same server without ruining things for either.

You also seem ignorant of the fact that the interviews and forum posts are also things that players are entitled to rely on when deciding whether to purchase the game (see my above discussion about the "single-edged sword" of truthful advertising, as well as the discussion of what would be "necessary" vs. "sufficient" to justify players' expectations that pvp and tribewar would be in the game (recap: a mention of those topics on the features page is sufficient, but not necessary, to justify the expectation).

I consider this conversation to be over. You are incapable of playing ball.

[Phazaar]

You simply ignore the fact that you failed to prove that the feature page advertise PvP and tribal warfare. Everything you mentioned can be meant in a PvE system too. There is only 1 hint that is more logical in a PvP system (though it can be meant in PvE too, just imagine a player killing angels makes him evil, while killing demons makes him good), but NOTHING indicates warfare.

The devs did talk about PvP in interviews, but never mentioned tribal warfare. It was only brought up on forum, and it was always promised after Prelude. PvP is in, combat is under rework, tribal warfare will be in later just as they said. So how did they say misleading informations ?

He didn't fail, but since you're still missing the point, you need to consider context. The features page ISN'T the home page. People have already read all of the 'good versus evil', 'shaping the future' stuff, then read the Features AND THE FAQ (which DOES mention both FFA PVP and Tribal Warfare). Frankly, any 2 of those 3 will guarantee the impression of PvP to -MOST- people (this is how advertising is decided; its effects on MOST people), and considering the current dynamic within game development, any ONE of those three does more than enough to imply it.

To the rest of your post, see my 2 cents part on my previous post. It -really- isn't made clear how under-featured the game is ANYWHERE on the website. THAT is the real travesty, and that is the real reason we should not be paying.