PvP and PvE do not need to be mutually exclusive.

[orious13]

What you do in the privacy of your Totem is entirely up to you, we don't judge.

Probably does that to scare away the grizzlies.

[jokhul]

All this talk about Xsyon being such and such game or not being such and such game is just a weak arguement that has little thought put into it. Not that I'm really surprised. Safe zones are not evil. Lootable corpses are not evil. Just because Darkfall and Mortal Online failed to get a system in place to limit greifers doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Some older MMOs pretty much nailed balance on the head. It's the new crop of imitators that aren't able to do it properly.

I don't believe it can be done, not in a game that has FFA-PVP everywhere in the game world.

Mortal Online tried to emulate the old UO system of making PK'ers turn red and being KOS in NPC towns (insta-gank by all-powerful NPC guards). However, MO also allows a player to have multiple characters on one account, so the "penalty" of loss of access to NPC facilities was easily circumvented. Some "red" guilds had a small army of "blue" alts just for that pupose, lol.

In fact, Mortal Online has an incredibly complex system of flagging players, but the really inventive gankers actually used the complexity of the system to their advantage. It certainly did not seem to have any major impact on ganking.

There's usually a way around most alignment penalties, and if players have the will, they will always find a way. There are of course also those people that are dedicated to "beating the system", and will go to incredible lengths to be able to PK.

The only guaranteed way of stopping random ganking is to to have seperate zones in the game world.

Complex rule-systems are usually exploited by both sides, PK'ers and PVE'ers equally if the opportunity presents itself.

[PrinceReaper]

I don't believe it can be done, not in a game that has FFA-PVP everywhere in the game world.

Mortal Online tried to emulate the old UO system of making PK'ers turn red and being KOS in NPC towns (insta-gank by all-powerful NPC guards). However, MO also allows a player to have multiple characters on one account, so the "penalty" of loss of access to NPC facilities was easily circumvented. Some "red" guilds had a small army of "blue" alts just for that pupose, lol.

In fact, Mortal Online has an incredibly complex system of flagging players, but the really inventive gankers actually used the complexity of the system to their advantage. It certainly did not seem to have any major impact on ganking.

There's usually a way around most alignment penalties, and if players have the will, they will always find a way. There are of course also those people that are dedicated to "beating the system", and will go to incredible lengths to be able to PK.

The only guaranteed way of stopping random ganking is to to have seperate zones in the game world.

Complex rule-systems are usually exploited by both sides, PK'ers and PVE'ers equally if the opportunity presents itself.

it doesn't make a major difference if you had one character, if you have 2 accounts

[jokhul]

it doesn't make a major difference if you had one character, if you have 2 accounts

Exactly.

"One char per account" reduces the pool of potential PK'ers a bit, but it most certainly does not eliminate it.

[orious13]

it doesn't make a major difference if you had one character, if you have 2 accounts

Yep... people in this will just buy more than one account to take advantage of the whatever system. IMO it's many times the community's fault that those games fail in some ways.

[Dubanka]

the whole multiple account thing is because the game rewards someone for making an alt account...either to gain access to a set of skills (ie. crafter/pvp alt) or skirt a rule set (pvp/karma flag). If game design didn't reward a player for making an alt account, or rather give them a 'real' advantage by making one, then only a minority would.

I don't believe it can be done, not in a game that has FFA-PVP everywhere in the game world.

That is the absolute best place it can be done...provided the game mechanics and balance are supportive to that end.
every action needs to have a counter action
every decision needs to have a consequence

the more artificial restrictions you point an a character or mechanic the more open it is for abuse

[Hanover]

IMO it's many times the community's fault that those games fail in some ways.

Yep...Carebears killed UO.

[Jadzia]

All this talk about Xsyon being such and such game or not being such and such game is just a weak arguement that has little thought put into it. Not that I'm really surprised. Safe zones are not evil. Lootable corpses are not evil. Just because Darkfall and Mortal Online failed to get a system in place to limit greifers doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Some older MMOs pretty much nailed balance on the head. It's the new crop of imitators that aren't able to do it properly.

Can you mention one game with FFA open world PvP that the PvP and PvE crowd equally enjoyed ?

[xyberviri]

I simply can not believe that you the players would not be able to implement your own system to deal with gankers. How hard is it to have a KOS list of your own and to simply band up with your neighbors in your zone against the ganker/griefer.

Everyone here is all vocal and able to post a reply on this thread talking about how much you hate gankers and griefers and what not but no one is willing to actually try to defend them selves. because the only thing gankers strive on is you have to be weak. you have to run like a bunny and get killed and thats exactly what they want.

but no you need some artificial mechanic to create this safe zone where your warm blanky protects you and only the bears will be able to hurt you.


you know exactly whats going to happen there going to camp your bears and your resources and your not going to be able to do anything about it because you cried and cried about how much the game needs to protect you from the harsh cruel mmo world. There going to terra form around your tribes and cut down all your trees and you wont be able to stop them.




PvP doesn't always mean some one dies or even gets attacked. and in games with out combat PvP you just get it in other forms. at least with open world pvp you can defend your self with out it your just going to be stuck sitting on the side lines while some ass hole paves over your scrap, grass, sand, twigs and brush.



Instead of complaining about how you need a pve only zone and a pvp only zone, why not help by contributing to the mechanics that let you take control over that ass. what about say bounty systems, what about wanted posters that let you post rewards for killing them, what about some method to get revenge on them.

[Dubanka]

Can you mention one game with FFA open world PvP that the PvP and PvE crowd equally enjoyed ?

it hasn't been built. you can say UO...but the industry was in its infancy then. unfortunately devs have been caught in the clone loop. the industry has been dominated by the eq grind model, and the wow instance model, with tertiary grind covered by the f2p supergrind games. everyone builds a game to try to take someone elses (proven) niche. ever segway into the truly massively multiplayer arena as been attempted by indie devs who inevitably fall short due to lack of funds, talent, or in some cases their own success.

Give me 30 Mil and ill make your game.

Added after 6 minutes:

I simply can not believe that you the players would not be able to implement your own system to deal with gankers. How hard is it to have a KOS list of your own and to simply band up with your neighbors in your zone against the ganker/griefer.

Everyone here is all vocal and able to post a reply on this thread talking about how much you hate gankers and griefers and what not but no one is willing to actually try to defend them selves. because the only thing gankers strive on is you have to be weak. you have to run like a bunny and get killed and thats exactly what they want.

but no you need some artificial mechanic to create this safe zone where your warm blanky protects you and only the bears will be able to hurt you.


you know exactly whats going to happen there going to camp your bears and your resources and your not going to be able to do anything about it because you cried and cried about how much the game needs to protect you from the harsh cruel mmo world. There going to terra form around your tribes and cut down all your trees and you wont be able to stop them.




PvP doesn't always mean some one dies or even gets attacked. and in games with out combat PvP you just get it in other forms. at least with open world pvp you can defend your self with out it your just going to be stuck sitting on the side lines while some ass hole paves over your scrap, grass, sand, twigs and brush.



Instead of complaining about how you need a pve only zone and a pvp only zone, why not help by contributing to the mechanics that let you take control over that ass. what about say bounty systems, what about wanted posters that let you post rewards for killing them, what about some method to get revenge on them.

excellent post.

best part was the 5th para/sentence. I like open pvp games, not because i'm a great pvpr (im not) but because i can hold someone accountable for their behavior. I don't have to accept that bob the moron is going to ks every mob i kill, or ninja loot the uber bling from the dungeon i crawled through, or that i can only stand by helplessly as he rolls in with an uber farming group to take over the mob spawn i was working in. Nope. I, with the help of my friends, can dealt with the situation.

imo griefing in a pvpless world is soo much more worse than when it is done in an open pvp world...because yousimply dont have any options, besides crying, in the former. I want to determine the outcome of the game, not require that some dev/gm/guide hold my hand when the world doesnt go my way.