War, taking towns & forts

[MrDDT]

So the only thing against magic barrier is that its 'fake' ? Lol this is a game, everything is fake here.
Walls would effect bots a lot. They can't be reported to GMs since they can't be seen. You expect the GMs to teleport inside every city to check for bots ? If player reports can't help they will be clueless where to search for them.

I would hate a world full of locked up cities which can't be visited due to the owner's (valid) paranoia. I'd much better take a system which gives freedom in design and in social aspects and the only downside that it uses the word 'safe'. Thats not a downside anyway, it tells the customer properly what to expect.

Well you should build in the safe areas then. I dont see a problem with this.
Most people looking for a sandbox game, are looking for more than ATITD type of sandbox. They want strafe and resource control. They want to build a world not just because its pretty, but for a use. Like trade city, or a castle for offense, or a well fortified city for defense.

I understand what you want, and I agree there are people out there like you, great. Build in the safe areas. I dont see a problem with that. But the system he is talking about is just more than just being pretty its useful too.

You talk about seeing bots. How can you tell someone is botting? Plus couldnt I just bot behind walls? In your magical areas isnt it a choice to put up walls or not? So pretty much if someone wanted to bot they could just put up walls in your option also. So really you dont solve the problem with the magical barrier either. (Just so you know Im promagic barrier btw with walls. =P).

When Im talking about "fake" Im talking about things that dont make sense. Like "Why cant I jump over a 1" rock, but I can jump over a 10 meter river? Well because the game makers say you cant" thats what Im talking about fake.

You have to explain things and give reason for them. Its like why would there be paper money after over after you burn down a house for loot? Or why would you kill a bear and get a metal knife for loot? It doesnt make sense.
What does make sense is killing a bear and getting maybe leather or fish for loot. Or maybe a raccoon might have a shinny gem or something.

[orious13]

The quest thing would be the only problem that I hadn't thought of, but for questing you could just add some simple script that would allow a random person at the door to request entrance. Kind of unlocking the gates just 1 time for 1 person or a party of people, auto-locking once they are inside. Of course if no one's in the tribe area with the ability to grant entrance, you won't enter. Bots/macros will happen regardless. You could terraform to have a high walled topless box right now and just exploit unstuck to leave/enter and it'd be the same thing. Aesthetically... it'd be rare to see a no walled area that's true, but that's not an immersion breaker.

Simply put, the safer you want to be is the safer you make yourself. The difference between having guards, towers/turrets, gates+walls, and "safe zones" is that the former 3 give you safety dependent on how much safety you want. The last one just gives you safety.

To clarify my preference.
MMOs use to feel more like "worlds" and less like "games". They are still games of course... I can't really explain the feeling, but I know some people will understand what I mean. I like Xsyon for already giving me this feeling [as did Mortal, DF, SWG, (for me also L2), but I barely played MO and DF before quiting]. As long as they shy away from the focus of Mortal and DF, they can pretty much do whatever they want and I'll still like the game whether it's EvE/Dawntide or the current thought. But I currently only play 1 hour a week... if that. And sadly TSW feels more appealing to me than anything I've seen in a long time >.< .

EDIT:

As DDT said... I like when it makes sense. That's exactly it. I'm not saying I can't have fun other ways, either, but the more sense the better as long as it doesn't turn ridiculous like a 100% FFA asset destruction would.

[Jadzia]

Well you should build in the safe areas then. I dont see a problem with this.
Most people looking for a sandbox game, are looking for more than ATITD type of sandbox. They want strafe and resource control. They want to build a world not just because its pretty, but for a use. Like trade city, or a castle for offense, or a well fortified city for defense.

I understand what you want, and I agree there are people out there like you, great. Build in the safe areas. I dont see a problem with that. But the system he is talking about is just more than just being pretty its useful too.

You talk about seeing bots. How can you tell someone is botting? Plus couldnt I just bot behind walls? In your magical areas isnt it a choice to put up walls or not? So pretty much if someone wanted to bot they could just put up walls in your option also. So really you dont solve the problem with the magical barrier either. (Just so you know Im promagic barrier btw with walls. =P).

When Im talking about "fake" Im talking about things that dont make sense. Like "Why cant I jump over a 1" rock, but I can jump over a 10 meter river? Well because the game makers say you cant" thats what Im talking about fake.

You have to explain things and give reason for them. Its like why would there be paper money after over after you burn down a house for loot? Or why would you kill a bear and get a metal knife for loot? It doesnt make sense.
What does make sense is killing a bear and getting maybe leather or fish for loot. Or maybe a raccoon might have a shinny gem or something.

You should stop confusing Xsyon's plan with your own suggestion. My conversation with orious was about Xsyon's plan, and there are no safe areas there to build in.

Its very easy to find an explanation for safe zones. Like the gods protect peaceful people. If you try to attack someone inside his zone and guardian pops up and kills you. That makes sense, just read the (very short) lore we have.

@orious13: unlocking the gate for a person or a team is problematic, since the tribe doesn't trust them, thus doesn't want them inside their town. So they won't open the gates for them. The main problem is that people won't be able to visit other cities due to paranoia, and thats not good imo.

Walls, gates, turrets can give different level of safety for people who don't want 100% of that. But non-warring tribes should be able to keep their safe zone, these tribes could be center of trading and questing, benefiting everyone in the game.

Safe zones will be required anyway, for new players till they build up defenses. The system will be mixed, no matter if we like magical safety or not, its necessary.

I agree with you that a good MMO should feel like a world. But for that it doesn't have to be realistic, only immersive and coherent. An explanation that fits the game and the lore doesn't break the immersion. Like in DDT's example, we can't jump 10 meters in real...but if the game gives us a good explanation that why we can then it creates a new world with its own rules. As long as everything obeys to these new (and not necessarily realistic) rules, the game will feel like a world.

[MrDDT]

You should stop confusing Xsyon's plan with your own suggestion. My conversation with orious was about Xsyon's plan, and there are no safe areas there to build in.

Huh?
We have lots of safe areas right now. WTH are you talking about?

Jadzia what about your plan allows for people to spy on your defenses if they can just roam around your city, and see who is online and who isnt etc. You can nit pick with lots of little things like that. You really telling me your sticking point is that people cant come visit because YOU dont trust them? Really?

If one person wants to visit my town, I would let them. If they got out of hand they would die pretty fast (really fast if the town had defenses to support this type of system).

Safe zones will be required anyway, for new players till they build up defenses. The system will be mixed, no matter if we like magical safety or not, its necessary.

Ahh no, what about like having super guards to protect people instead of a magical barrier? You dont have to have that system. Even though I agree with a magical barrier system is best/easiest it doesnt HAVE to be that way to work.

[Jadzia]

Huh?
We have lots of safe areas right now. WTH are you talking about?

Well you should build in the safe areas then. I dont see a problem with this.

This was your reply to my problems about walls-gates. So what did you mean by this ?

Jadzia what about your plan allows for people to spy on your defenses if they can just roam around your city, and see who is online and who isnt etc. You can nit pick with lots of little things like that. You really telling me your sticking point is that people cant come visit because YOU dont trust them? Really?

Thats not my plan. Its the devs'. And if I have safe zone, why would I need defenses ? Why would I care if they know who is online or not ? Plus if I care, I can still build walls. Personally I wouldn't, but people build walls even know when it has no use at all. The more option the better.

And no, my point is not that I don't trust people. Though I wouldn't let any stranger inside my homestead if I didn't have a protection there. This is how it would work...when tribes are offline, or only a few people are there, they won't let anyone in due to the risk of being killed and perhaps stealing (if implemented). Gates will be locked all the time for sure.

Ahh no, what about like having super guards to protect people instead of a magical barrier? You dont have to have that system. Even though I agree with a magical barrier system is best/easiest it doesnt HAVE to be that way to work.

LOL. So you agree that magical barrier is the best/easiest and still you are arguing ? Why ? Just for the sake of arguing ?
Super guards is just as good as magic barrier. Anything is good that protects the players with an ingame mechanic, thus doesn't force players to lock themselves inside a castle when they want safety.

[MrDDT]

This was your reply to my problems about walls-gates. So what did you mean by this ?
When contested areas come into the game (which is planned right?) dont build in the contested areas.

Thats not my plan. Its the devs'. And if I have safe zone, why would I need defenses ? Why would I care if they know who is online or not ? Plus if I care, I can still build walls. Personally I wouldn't, but people build walls even know when it has no use at all. The more option the better.

Because people can see how active a clan is, camping when you DO leave your safe area, also for other types of attacked or other things.

And no, my point is not that I don't trust people. Though I wouldn't let any stranger inside my homestead if I didn't have a protection there. This is how it would work...when tribes are offline, or only a few people are there, they won't let anyone in due to the risk of being killed and perhaps stealing (if implemented). Gates will be locked all the time for sure.

I dont thin gates would be locked al the time for sure, look at gates in wurm online. It has the same issues you are talking about. They will be locked when people want them locked, and unlocked when they dont. Gates are great for the system that is going to be in place (currently planned) and for the system Im talking about.

LOL. So you agree that magical barrier is the best/easiest and still you are arguing ? Why ? Just for the sake of arguing ?
Super guards is just as good as magic barrier. Anything is good that protects the players with an ingame mechanic, thus doesn't force players to lock themselves inside a castle when they want safety.

I agree that they are the best, I dont believe they are the ONLY option. You are making it sound like "Oh we have to do it because no other options are out there"
Super guards are NOT the same as a magical barrier, guards can be paid etc and explained. Magical barrier is a game system that doesnt make sense. Yes you can kinda explain it like you are saying with lore, but still it drops away from what the general concept of the game. I mean if you can make a magical barrier around your town, why not a force field around yourself the whole time? Or what about a deer?
Its the idea of a "fake" system vs something that is more realistic.
You already force yourself to locked in your "castle" when you want safety. Im not understanding your point. SOON as you leave your tribe lands you are open for attack. Im even giving you in my system MORE of a safety net not less. Why would I do that? Because I believe its needed. New players need the extra protection. Players like you also will want more protections. In my system I account for this. You keep saying you like the current system, but its almost like you are saying you like it for the sake of likely it (aka fanboi).
Please explain how my system will make you less safe?

[orious13]

If they explain it in the lore that's fine by me really, but when they wrote the lore the assumption that there wouldn't be any after prelude wasn't questioned...

There are ways to make the "safe zone" anywhere work with the contested resources (kind of like the during prelude time). The ability to op-out of war just makes war a for fun thing just by itself. The meaning in it is largely gone, which is what the war people dislike. If you're fine with it just being for fun (I don't really care) then great. If you're not it's because you understand that being able to op-out with safe zones is actually a bit of a mess...for a war game (which this isn't). It's like a PvP-er playing on a PvE server where no one checkmarks the PvP box. That's obviously just saying to the pvp-er, "you're in the wrong place".

Does dropping a safe zone anywhere create problems? Yeah...obviously it could create a bunch of them, which is probably why they were supposed to be gone after prelude.

It's funny because with the safe zones now every time I visit random people (whether we meet out or in a safe zone) I am never attacked. This is how the community is. Once/if they remove safe zones, will that change?

All I have to say is MEH.

[Phatkat]

PvE-ers love this game cause its a sandbox, but thats the thing its a sandbox...it should be anything goes thats the type of game it is.

[Jadzia]

I agree that they are the best, I dont believe they are the ONLY option. You are making it sound like "Oh we have to do it because no other options are out there"
Super guards are NOT the same as a magical barrier, guards can be paid etc and explained. Magical barrier is a game system that doesnt make sense. Yes you can kinda explain it like you are saying with lore, but still it drops away from what the general concept of the game. I mean if you can make a magical barrier around your town, why not a force field around yourself the whole time? Or what about a deer?
Its the idea of a "fake" system vs something that is more realistic.

As I said I don't care how safety is implemented, super guards are good as well. Do you even read the post before you reply ?

You already force yourself to locked in your "castle" when you want safety. Im not understanding your point. SOON as you leave your tribe lands you are open for attack.

Lol no doubt you don't understand it. Its not about safety outside of tribe zones. Its about why safety needed inside a tribe zone so that tribes could keep their area opened for others.

Im even giving you in my system MORE of a safety net not less. Why would I do that? Because I believe its needed. New players need the extra protection. Players like you also will want more protections. In my system I account for this. You keep saying you like the current system, but its almost like you are saying you like it for the sake of likely it (aka fanboi).
Please explain how my system will make you less safe?

Omg lol. Get over yourself finally. We are not talking about your suggestion, it has been discussed more than enough times. We started a new conversation with orious, that how an area should be kept 'safe' in Xsyon's plan.

And I said I'm fine with the current setup. Its not the best solution, I've already said what the best solution would be imo. Its not your suggestion, not far from that, but a more fair setup.

There are ways to make the "safe zone" anywhere work with the contested resources (kind of like the during prelude time). The ability to op-out of war just makes war a for fun thing just by itself. The meaning in it is largely gone, which is what the war people dislike. If you're fine with it just being for fun (I don't really care) then great. If you're not it's because you understand that being able to op-out with safe zones is actually a bit of a mess...for a war game (which this isn't). It's like a PvP-er playing on a PvE server where no one checkmarks the PvP box. That's obviously just saying to the pvp-er, "you're in the wrong place".

I think this is what 'not PvP focused' means. We get the option to attack and siege for fun and some limited contest, but the game is not built around it.

[xyberviri]

PvE-ers love this game cause its a sandbox, but thats the thing its a sandbox...it should be anything goes thats the type of game it is.

yup, thats exactly the problem....