To me this is like a discussion about a ball game.
The pros desire full contact.
And the cheerleaders want to sit on the sidelines (you're not allowed to tackle them).
I think the whole discussion boils down to this:
Either this game will be a full contact post-apoc world,
Or the post-apoc world will be nothing more than wallpaper.
Either it will have to limit competition, in which case the pros will get bored with surfing in the pool and leave for the coast.
Or it will have to provide a level of competition expected in a post-apoc world, in which case the non-competitive will tire of loosing a match they didn't want to play in the first place.
And I hate to say it because I don't like the idea of two servers. But these two sides are for the better part mutually exclusive. You will never get those who enjoy a real challenge to enjoy mock competition. Sooner or later, they'll figure out they're chasing their tail and be done with it. Likewise, you will never get those who hate to ever loose, to enjoy competition.
The competitive are the dominant gene so to speak. So that when you put these two groups together, you're essentially providing competition with another tool to compete, which leads to an endless set of rules and regulations that eventually makes the post-apoc world a theme.
The only way to give them both what they want 'in its entirety' is to separate them.
What if there were no noob safe zones, but instead a 'training' server? One where post-apoc is just wallpaper and has no teeth?
I don't like it either but I feel forced into a corner. I'm convinced you'll never make these two groups happy together unless you separate them in some way whether its zones or servers or whatever.
If one person wants spaghetti and another cherry pie, you don't mix spaghetti and cherry pie together and serve them both spaghetta-cherri-pie. You have to serve them both on their own plate and there is no way to make the person who wants spaghetti to 'WANT' cherry pie in his spaghetti.
Mmmmm spaghetta-cherri-pie.......
I agree that separating the two types of players is the only likely way to please the PvE fans, However, it will drive away some of the PvPers. Not all players are equal, and some PvPers can only beat people who have little or no interest/ability in PvP.
The other issue is cost. I am pretty sure Xsyon is hurting for money, and probably can't afford another server.
This makes me laugh because its sadly true. hehe I would say good riddance to this one. If you can't stand the heat, well.... then melt.and some PvPers can only beat people who have little or no interest/ability in PvP.
Of course. Plus the player population issue. ie. How do you grow two simultaneous communities and still have enough players to attract both to something more than an empty world?The other issue is cost. I am pretty sure Xsyon is hurting for money, and probably can't afford another server.
Forgot to mention that you made a very good post, there, Trenchfoot.
Also: well, I have seen it in other games (like Fallen Earth) that the concept of post-apoc survival gets watered down so as not to scare some people away. Unfortunately, this drives away people like me, who WANT survival to be tough. This is why I can't get into Xsyon as it is. It NEEDS comfort, hunger, and thirst to be major factors.
One of the best things about Xsyon currently is the absence of NPCs - merchants and quest givers. I hope they stick to that, but they must have someone pointing out that making it more theme park would attract more players.
/\ Exactly why I signed up for Xsyon instead of some PVP-first MMO. From the promo material it looked like there was going to be a wilderness survival aspect to it. That survival thing would make Xsyon pretty unique among MMOs I think. If I were the devs I capitalize on that and make surviving actually an interesting challenge.
Good post,Trench, and while I don't agree with all of your reasoning I do agree with the conclusion. No one likes spaghetta-cherri-pie, so don't mix the 2.
This is what I'd love to see as well.It NEEDS comfort, hunger, and thirst to be major factors.
The survival aspect is what also drew me in within the first few minutes of entering the game. I was growing hungry and thirsty, and felt I needed to fix that. Didn't realize it had no effect yet... but still.
I'd definitely agree that would be a great focus for the game.
There's no PvP ladder in Xsyon. The notion that pvpers are all uberlike pros and everyone else just needs training wheels is boring. It's overdone. It stinks of megalomania. It's a dime a dozen and not even worth the dime.
Post Apoc doesn't HAVE to mean Mad Max. This is where those folks would say "Think out of the box." Right back at ya. Not everyone needs pixelated teeth to have fun. Beating someone up with a keyboard and mouse while drinkin' Dew, or whatever else, doesn't have to be the focus of every game out there.
Someone mentioned NGE. That watered down all mechanics of SWG, not just for the pvpers... even if they feel they're the most important and worthy demographic to ever walk upright.
I find this topic a bit funny.
I have several times spoke to players in xsyon since I started a very short while ago. Most them immediately jump to.. " one man tribe, it has to be tough, man what are you going to do when people can raid your stuff?"
logically there is safety in numbers... but you will always have rogue elements. I don't believe in pixel hugging, items come and go real easy, skill is the only thing I care if I keep.
One of the reason I help players is I am building a relationship with all of you, with the hope some where down the line, maybe you are elite pvp, maybe you or your clan can provide me with shelter, safety or resources I can't get to. It is possibility all my investment, time and effort, especially in a game could and might very well be forgotten when pvp is thrown down.
I don't mind though, it is a risk I take, it is what makes the game interesting to me. I say a lot of silly shit, I cause a stir when I can... I don't play like ddt, but I respect the guys style, and his points of view, cause they add spice to the game, to the world.
Point is I don't believe in safe zones, they should be removed, you are only as safe as your numbers, your wits, your connections. If 20 guys raid a city of 40, and wipe em by surprise, well... welcome to how a real apocalyptic world would be like.
We spend to much time, in real life, in games, etc with this false concept of a fair and just world... it doesn't work that way... a system exist when it is strong enough to support itself, fairness is a luxury, and in my eyes a detraction from the whole environment of the game play in xsyon.
No safe zones, no rules other than no hacking, exploitng etc, cause in an apocalyptic world and I think most of you agree, the thing that is most attractive about it is the fact that other than what you can talk all you want, and say how it is but until you can enforce it... might as well be breathing the zone's mist.
there is a 6 digit playerbase out there waiting for an open world / sandbox / ffa game done right.
done right means a game with balanced economic, political, and warfare systems.
done right means having a system that promotes conflict yet at the same time, provides a 'safe' path for those that would prefer to not risk as much (insert risk reward discussion that we've had a couple times).
done right means having design elements that encourage players to interact with one another to achieve certain goals...goals that are defined by individual players needs and wants.
done right means a system designed so players have to tools to deal with most issues themselves.
I gotta say, I don't have a lot of faith that the game will get done right. The contingent that remains, is mostly 'happy' with the status quo of build, craft, scavange, oh-my. PvP features that get introduced will not be thoroughly tested...primarily because i don't see many of the pvp folks coming back to pay-to-test...and unless systems are thoroughly tested, well, we end up where we started when us new folks showed up rabid for a game that looked a lot like modern day UO (it wasn't pretty). Anyway, don't actually care too much anymore...just trying to finish up the vd temple before my time runs out. /tip