Questions for the players

[VeryWiiTee]

See now this was awesome!

Jadzia. I always require pay from my stuff. The working economy is up to us to create. The problem, I think, are players. Who knows how to barter with items. How do you set the price with different resources at hand.. Economy is more our own doing. But adding a localized action house might get it started. You can expand your auction house by 'buying/collecting materials' for upgrades to the auction house (so that the auction house influence extends over more land - allowing it to contact new auction houses) etc.

Except for vandal that completely missed the point.
- I crafted the same kind of items thousands of times in WoW, Vanguard, EQ, Aion and I could keep on going for the purpose of levelling too, which is why I take it you kept using the same weapon recipe.
- Loot an animal of what items?.. Really.. I mean.. Really.. I'm sure (I know) it is mentioned somewhere what you see is most likely what you can loot.
- It isn't a discussion on what sucks or not.

Content for me are things like.

I love this, though I'd divert it into content/more options

More animals, stronger animals, ones that takes a group of people to kill. AI is really bad in game right now.
More skills like cooking and other things.
Things on ways to heal yourself
Bonuses to building a town, or tribe land faster healing, bonuses to crafting, rare resources to protect.
Rare resources and local resources.
Pack animals, carts and other ways to export these rare resources for trading.
New combat styles, special moves, special attacks.
New weapon types like polearms and staves, and archery.
Magic.
Open up the map (really I dont think this is needed yet because of the 50 people currently playing isnt much).

Thats just some content.

Content:
More animals
More skills like cooking and other things (animal training , fire building?)
Things on ways to heal yourself
Rare resources to protect.
Pack animals, carts and other ways to export these rare resources for trading.
Magic.
Open up the map/New zones (I suspect)

More options: (It is still content, but more of addition to existing content already)
stronger animals, ones that takes a group of people to kill. (AI is really bad in game right now.)
Bonuses to building a town, or tribe land
bonuses to crafting,
Faster healing
New combat styles, special moves, special attacks.
New weapon types like polearms and staves, and archery.

Added after 17 minutes:

The 'missing content' is not some silver bullet set of items on a to-do list. The missing content is more the fabric that links everything together.

1. Combat. Was fubar. Devs are making strides to unscrew it. Great. This is a mechanics correction, not a content creation. But if they get this done correctly, it's a pretty huge step. Combat is merely a means to an end, not the end itself. Combat settles conflict, but the conflict itself should be primarily driven by political and economic concerns.

2. Crafting. You craft to craft. While there is a lot of 'content' here, it's pretty pointless because there is really very little value associated with it. Because...

3. Resources. The world is oversaturated with resources. There is no rarity, thus there is no value. Without value there is no economy. There is very little we can't get for ourselves. There is very little reason to engage in trade, or warfare, to obtain resources.

4. Skills. Everyone can be everything, so there is no value on the individual crafter. IF i want to be something, i just have to grind it...this wouldnt be that bad except, i suffer no consequence for doing this. Game design where everyone can be everything is...bad design...If everyone can be a master crafter, on everything...meh. bad.

5. Accountability. Even if everything stated previously is addressed to a satisfactory degree, it's all pointless if there is not some degree of player accountability. The ability too hold a player accountable for their actions is paramount to the larger game. Accountability is the glue that holds the pieces together...you can't have politics without it. Your economy will stagnate without it (if you control/monopolize a resource 'we' need to be able to make a decision if we want to tolerate that...which in large part will be dictated by the controllers actions). Very simply, without accountability, every gameplay item is really artificial...the moment you make players accountable for each and every action is when you start to see real drama unfold, as players seek to protect and expand their interests.

so while the game is a sandbox [insert meaning], and yes, the players ultimately should determine what happens in it, the game design should assist by channeling players to some type of crucible that serves to ignite gameplay.

Sandbox, to shape and create in an enviroment that is filled with sand. Yay!

On to the real deal. So what you want are tweaks to the already in-place systems. Not more content. That is how I read it.
Again, some of it is more up to the player than it is to the dev team. Economy is our responsibility. That you don't price your wares. Neat, you can give them for free and I'll gladly sell it to others for items I can't be bothered to go look for (which is the deal in this system so long a soft cap isn't in yet).

Soft skill cap. I view it as content 'cos without it we can all be the best scavengers, foragers and crafters making high quality stuff that no one needs as all can do it. See. The problem is less of the economy and more of a 'you need to be able to reduce the amount of people doing a specific thing', doing that will create a demand/supply situation all of the sudden.

Uhm.. Have you actually been able to hold a single player accountable for stuff in a game world?.. I haven't and it would take the entire server to punish another player.. Hardly a feat that is going to happen..

Conflict will happen regardless of what we do.. It is human nature and I'm confident we don't even need rare resources to get into a fight.. A mere scrapyard might be enough.. (well it was for LA )

[Xsyon]

Thanks for this thread!

I've been having similar discussions with the team all night. What 'content' I think we need most is balance and improvements that will give meaning and use to what's already in game. Things like distributing resources, improving recipes and adding currency can be done fairly quickly.

For example something I was discussing with one of the artists regarding recipes: We go through all armor recipes and make sure they all have at least one interchangeable component. If you use standard components you get standard armor. Rare components could give bonuses to stats or armor properties.

We do have a lot of systems, like the quest system, that can be improved so that players create more 'content' for the game. My main goal is to provide the tools and systems, so that players create the interactions.

[VeryWiiTee]

Oh no problem.. I was just tired of the 'NEED MOAR CONTENT' without actually adding what this content might be.. Other than a meh phrase you could throw into the public if not satisfied.
Do you need it listed for a better overview of what we think might help on the content area?

[MrDDT]

Thanks for this thread!

I've been having similar discussions with the team all night. What 'content' I think we need most is balance and improvements that will give meaning and use to what's already in game. Things like distributing resources, improving recipes and adding currency can be done fairly quickly.

For example something I was discussing with one of the artists regarding recipes: We go through all armor recipes and make sure they all have at least one interchangeable component. If you use standard components you get standard armor. Rare components could give bonuses to stats or armor properties.

We do have a lot of systems, like the quest system, that can be improved so that players create more 'content' for the game. My main goal is to provide the tools and systems, so that players create the interactions.

Thanks Xsyon.

Im loving the idea with the armor, I think many things can be done like that when adding a few rare resources. Also making some of these resources local to regions would help greatly. So right now the north has a lot of animals compared to the south, thats kinda like a local resource. But the north doesnt need anything from the south.
Also without exporting system (like carts, packmules or sleds) its hard to even start any kinda of trading.

[Xsyon]

Do you need it listed for a better overview of what we think might help on the content area?

Yes. We will move this thread to the Developer Zone. Along with the 5 small fixes thread it can give me ideas on things I can focus on this month while the other coders work primarily on combat and server improvements.

[Dubanka]

Added after 17 minutes:

Sandbox, to shape and create in an enviroment that is filled with sand. Yay!

On to the real deal. So what you want are tweaks to the already in-place systems. Not more content. That is how I read it.
Again, some of it is more up to the player than it is to the dev team. Economy is our responsibility. That you don't price your wares. Neat, you can give them for free and I'll gladly sell it to others for items I can't be bothered to go look for (which is the deal in this system so long a soft cap isn't in yet).

Soft skill cap. I view it as content 'cos without it we can all be the best scavengers, foragers and crafters making high quality stuff that no one needs as all can do it. See. The problem is less of the economy and more of a 'you need to be able to reduce the amount of people doing a specific thing', doing that will create a demand/supply situation all of the sudden.

Uhm.. Have you actually been able to hold a single player accountable for stuff in a game world?.. I haven't and it would take the entire server to punish another player.. Hardly a feat that is going to happen..

Conflict will happen regardless of what we do.. It is human nature and I'm confident we don't even need rare resources to get into a fight.. A mere scrapyard might be enough.. (well it was for LA )

sandbox def...i'm not gonna bite

Your point on the economy is just wrong You can sell your wares, but there is no reason for a player to 'buy' them...are rather there is no necessity, since given the proper time and motivation, (s)he can create the exact same product as you're trying to sell...without having to suffer a trade off. I mean I am all for a system that allows a player to say, 'screw you, ill make it myself rather than be robbed by you...' but at some point the character should have to either a) not be able to advance a skill further sacrificing something else or b) be capped at a value for 'non primary' skill...ie. i can get 3 skills to 100, 2 to 75, 1 to 50, and the highest any other can get to is 25. An economy is driven by scarcity of resources and, by the availability of those who can put those resources to use.

the single player thing...If a douche moves in next door, and starts cutting down all my trees, attacking me whenever i go out to do something, well, he needs to be able to be held accountable for those actions. I mean i only want to to pvp when I want to right This gets into the asset destruction/seige warfare/ territorial control discussion.

[VeryWiiTee]

The problem is you can be everything.
A soft skill cap would still stop it. Unless you are hardcore, and I can't be bothered about them. They will always reach the end goal before anyone else and complain and can do most everything.
An aggressive soft skill cap would at least be a solution to some of the economy problem. It would also add to the realism. I can be very good at this, but when I've learned what I can without it degrading (the knowledge). Then I try to learn new stuff, this will put aside the old stuff. Meaning a) I can either choose this new path, seeing my other skills starting to decay faster and faster as I learn the new path only being able to retain those I still keep using frequently or b) I can stay with the old skills and stop the new skill, therefore not being very good at it but I retain my old ones. Both will affect the end product, people will need to start trading. If you want to survive the stronger animals (due to age, experience etc) you need better gear, since you focus woodworking, masonry and toolcrafting you can't make armor worth a damn, so you can't fight the stronger animals.
Rare resources are scarce, but common resources are grinded endlessly in every game, what makes the economy works are valuta sinks, we don't have these.
The only way of limiting it is by limiting the people that can get the resources and craft the items through a soft skill cap. It doesn't makes sense with a hard skill cap as you propose. (which is being worked on as I understand) and by limiting the amount of uses an item can have, which is present.

[MrDDT]

This is what is needed IMO to make the system work correctly.

1)Softcap (Xsyon says its in but its way to high)
2)Rare resources (There are some of them in the game but still lacking, flint, chalk, quarts etc). Right now they make no real impact on crafting.
3)Local resources there is really no resources that are local to one area over another.
4)Exporting system, there is no way to export any goods because how hard it is to carry goods. You get overweight and cant move much at all. Wagons, carts, packmules etc
5)Decay for items stock piled not just used
6)Conflict, allowing tribes to war each other for rare resources, pushing a neighbor out of an area you are in or want to be in etc.
7)Recipes need to be WAY more rare I shouldnt have every tool recipe even though Im at master toolcrafter. Recipes shouldnt be gained through training it should be gained through trade/scaving.


All of this isnt just something one or two items can be put in and make it work. It needs to have all these. They are no brainers.
#6 is the one people are going to be most upset with, but I think if they do it in a way with the mist being pushed back and those areas are these rare resources that are local to those areas, while allowing any totem in that area to be "contested" for it will allow people to build there at a risk but also at a great reward.
Right now the plans are to push back the NW area of the mist, well what if they made that rare resource #1 which allowed special qualities. Maybe like added to a recipe it will increase the HP of the wearer (for armor / weapons) or for tools or other items it could slow decay usage. Or maybe take less energy while being used.
That area would be highly contested for as this rare resource #1 would be highly fought for and wanted.

In doing this type of thing most of the trading would be done around the lake, where its more safe.

[Mactavendish]

One definition says:

"An economy consists of the economic system of a country or other area, the labor, capital and land resources, and the economic agents that socially participate in the production, exchange, distribution, and consumption of goods and services of that area."

From this we see that there are 3 main parts to a functioning economy.

1. Production.
In Xsyon, this is represented by anything we can craft, scavenge, forage, or fish. The real issue here is that although it take time, it does not take much time due to the over abundance of resources. This is an issue, because if getting basic resources is too tedious or takes to long players will just get bored and look for something more fun to do. Also, we all have the same resources. there is nothing rare and nothing we cannot get where we are. We curently over produce to such a degree that nothing have value...

2. Distribution.
This is represented here by trading and the quest system on a totem. There is NO way to easily distribute resources or service in Xsyon. For that matter, what services could I even offer that any player could not already do for themselves? This part of the economy has at best been an after thought as it appears that it was not planned for in advance.

3. Consumption.
Here is part that needs the most work as both other parts depend on it. With over abundance, we have no need to consume to the point of need. We also have no need to distribute anything since nobody has anything we need that we cannot get our selves. If your plumming backs up you call a plummer because you NEED to use the bathroom. We have NO needs. We don't need to do anything at all. Even eating and drinking here is not really necessary. You get very skinny looking and tire our a bit faster, but not enough to prevent you from doing anything at all.

So I agree with the other posters that we have no economy. To fix it requires the dev's to take a few risks.

It is such a gamble to make big changes. Piss off enough of your players and you game could fold. Please the wrong group and you change the dynamics of the entire game and could lose the vision you had for it.

BUT...

It may be necessary. So, what would I do?

1. Reduce the junk piles by 80%.
2. Introduce roaming NPC's that can either destroy gathered resources or fortifications. ( zombies maybe? depending on players to do this defines the types of player that will be playing here
... if you really want MO/DF tpye of players then thats what you will get. if you want more intelegent player you need to go further.)
3. DO NOT introduce currency, let the players barter and trade for the time being.
4. Introduce a water bottle and a 100 slot backpack, but make eating and drinking have real effects like you temporarly get weak from not eating and dizzy from not drinking.
5. Introduce something we all MUST have to survive, and make it rare or hard enough to get that players simply have to interact. for instance salt. With salt our fish dont decay with out salt they do, without salt we get thirsty faster with salt we last longer without water. Maybe salt weeds near marshy areas that can be crafted into rock salt that can be traded.
6. think of things that to some degree force players to interact. Maybe make general chat be 1 zone only.

[Jadzia]

Right now the plans are to push back the NW area of the mist, well what if they made that rare resource #1 which allowed special qualities. Maybe like added to a recipe it will increase the HP of the wearer (for armor / weapons) or for tools or other items it could slow decay usage. Or maybe take less energy while being used.
That area would be highly contested for as this rare resource #1 would be highly fought for and wanted.

I agree that rare resources are needed but I hope they won't make the new land a contested area. The starting area (the one we have now) is crowded, not with players but with abandoned totems, and since they don't decay and won't decay for a while there are no good free spots out there.

I hope the next land extension will be a contested area not the first one.