best of the best of the best of the best

[Dubanka]

ok. Just to hilight a problem...from a min max standpoint wwhats the 'best'.

armor: bone? is there a reason to wear anything other than bone if you know you're going to be fighting?

weapon: Does it matter which weapon...po axes and hammers are pretty brutal, is there any reason to use anything other than a po axe (since you can chop down trees with it as well).

clothes: Is there a reason to wear clothes? do they do anything besides encumber (i haven't noticed)

food: is there a reason to eat anything besides fish?

skills: is there a reason to take anything besides basketry and tool making?

so yeah...best of the best list.

[NorCalGooey]

Master Quality bone armor and Master Quailty offhand weapon with a PO is min max. (or supreme quality, if people can make those)

Ooo that was hard.




We need a lot better gear and make it harder to make than just "you need master quailty resources and high level skill"

Ideally i would like to see something like this

current armor sets now master quality < rare resource armor sets poor quality < very rare resource armor sets poor quality < rare resources high quality < very rare resources moderate quality < very rare resource master quality set




then they need something like gems or enchants (wow anyone? sorry) however, these wont be like WoW and extremely easy and invaluable to add to your gear (unlike WoW, everyone wont have enchants and gems (or what you can simply call additional upgrade bonuses, for lack of a better term)... these will be very, very, very rare and only the best of the best will have them. perhaps not rare in the sense that we do not know the location of the resources needed to craft additional upgrade bonuses...but rare in the sense that there are only a handful of locations to get these very rare resources and to get them you need to be A) really lucky and have no one else in the area looking for those resources or B) bring a party with you to defend while trying to find and gather rare resources.





that was extremely easy to think of in less than 10 minutes....come on devs you can do this.


so yes...something like that...of course much more specific. the rarer, the more time invested = the better (time invested comes from finding rare item and leveling skills up to high 90s-100 (which isn't exactly that difficult as is. i think it needs to take about 3x as much XP to hit 100 in ALL skills



edit: and even better would be soft caps on gear upgrades.



say it took 10 of item A to get +1 upgrade. then the next time you wanted to upgrade, it would cost 20 of those said items. Then the next time it would cost 40.

so you could get +3 upgrade for 70 of item A, or you could get +1 upgrade for 10 of item A. That is how a soft cap works. Armor upgrades would not decay. So in theory a piece of armor could be come legendary (take months and months)...and could make a single player able to take on a half dozen players in a battle. However, this piece of gear wouldn't be owned by any old homesteader, most likely...as it would be tough for a single player to obtain the resources needed to craft these upgrades to the armor. not to mention, it would be much harder to take down the player with the armor if he was in a tribe, because the rest of the players would protect him.

if someone was to lose the armor, they could always get it back by RETALIATING and then proceeding to LOOT the piece of armor back that they lost. in t his sense, t he armor will never decay or destroy over time ( just decay through being damaged, like normal) and also, you can never permanently lose that piece of gear unless the enemy deletes it. However, the gear would be so legendary, they wouldn't delete it they would keep it for themselves. so there would always be a chance to get your loots back

a system like this = INFINITE RISK REWARD.

this is really making me want to sit down and take hours and hours to make a very detalied system on how to add VALUE to items. and make their value essentially LIMITLESS

i think i may just do that. thanks Dubanka

[Dubanka]

Good stuff

The poinT of my soft pitch over the middle wass to illustrate how confined the games systems are (currently). In the other thread jordi states he wants balance...one part of that balance equation is the balance of 'stuff'.

Every single useable item should have a reason you could use it - we should be able to make an arguement where grass armor is the 'best' option for a given scenario...or cloth, leather,etc.

This isnt just a pvp thing, this is actually more of a crafting/economy thing. What is th point of having hhundreds of different crafting option if, at the end. Of the day, you only need a dozen, because those are the 'best'. If only bone armor is worthwhile, then guess what, youll only have people making and wearing bone armor.

There is no scenariio where that is good design.

[MrDDT]

Good stuff

The poinT of my soft pitch over the middle wass to illustrate how confined the games systems are (currently). In the other thread jordi states he wants balance...one part of that balance equation is the balance of 'stuff'.

Every single useable item should have a reason you could use it - we should be able to make an arguement where grass armor is the 'best' option for a given scenario...or cloth, leather,etc.

This isnt just a pvp thing, this is actually more of a crafting/economy thing. What is th point of having hhundreds of different crafting option if, at the end. Of the day, you only need a dozen, because those are the 'best'. If only bone armor is worthwhile, then guess what, youll only have people making and wearing bone armor.

There is no scenariio where that is good design.

Dub, I agree. I really hope this doesnt turn into a PVP vs carebear thing. But really this hits the nail on the head.

Right now everything someone crafts is really for no reason. Why should I wear any armor at all? 100% safe area when Im doing anything. I kill bears in 1 or 2 hits. I can run from anyone thats attacking me (because Im lighter). So there goes a need for armor or clothes other than looking cool.

Weapons. I have a preorder thats better than any other weapon Ive seen yet. I see no need to have any other weapon type as they all do about the same stuff. Knifes are a little better while having desync and lag issues I would say, but really no reason to use it other than that. (I normally use it in water as that's the main problem with using slower weapons). But Clubs vs Axes vs Shovels vs Knives offer no reason other than looks to choose one over another. This isnt even getting into the TYPES of axes. Why should I make AB axe over BC axe? If they are both master QL they do the same damage attack with the same speed. Its only looks that are different. Weapon type, and weapon choice have no effect on what type of armor someone is wearing. They do the same damage.

Tools, really the only choice in tools is "Am I going to grind with it" or "Am I going to use it for high QL making items". Which is good, but there are 4+ types of tools for each tool. I see no real reason other than if you have the mats or not to choose one over the other. There is no bonus for using say a screwdriver on bone armor vs using it with making another tool. Mostly though I think tools are doing pretty good, but could be better.

Wall types. 100% looks here because HP and other factors are not even in yet. Why even build a wall at all?

Food so far is fish diet only for me. But that's kinda to be expected because of the no cooking skill in the game. I just hope that once it is in the game they have more effects than simply how fast it fills up your hunger bar.


I think the end thought of all this is "Why" at the end of the day why would people want to do any of this? This is where IMO I think PVP and Stronger PVE mobs come into play. Right now no monster in game bothers me at all, it will take many hits even naked for a monster in game to kill me. Bears are the hardest hitting ones and they are a joke.

[Hanover]

I think the end thought of all this is "Why" at the end of the day why would people want to do any of this?

This...

GMing skills and hording resources kept me busy for a while(in hopes of the game getting some direction), but in the end I do nothing with either.

[Mactavendish]

The why for me is having something to play where I can make a mark on a persistent world. and relax while doing it.

I have been the alpha male type, own everything, control everything and be known far and wide by my rep in most games I have played. I am very bored of that.

Here I can relax, enjoy building up a good tribe, create a interesting town with others that like doing the same thing and see if I can play differently here and have different goals than just dominate and control. What I am working on here takes much more thought and planning.

Plus, I have a lot of patience. I can easily wait till things are put in that will draw players here. I'm NOT really worried. If this folds it is only a game after all and I'll find another. But the true reason I'm not worried is from what I have seen this game will eventually pull it off... may take a while, but by then I will have any skill I need to play in the way I like.

Besides, I have been adding new members to my tribe weekly since I started it after leaving Regulators. Either the game is still enjoyed by many and I'm doing something right, or I'm delusional.

Yes... sigh... I know which you think it is.

[thurgond]

The initial post shows a very poor understanding of the game.

armor: bone? is there a reason to wear anything other than bone if you know you're going to be fighting?

No, but you rarely "know you're going to be fighting." This really only happens when there is someone right outside your camp you want to kill. Normally, if you leave your camp to log, hunt, gather, even PvP, then bone is too heavy to be worth the extra weight if you are going any distance.

weapon: Does it matter which weapon...po axes and hammers are pretty brutal, is there any reason to use anything other than a po axe (since you can chop down trees with it as well).

If you want to hunt, then PO knives will get more bones. If you want to do a lot of terraforming , then the PO shovel will never wear out. If you plan to settle a rocky area, then taking the PO pick still won't have a long use, but it will do as much damage as an axe and you won't be one of the same as the crowd that choose an axe. Of course, new players don't get PO weapons, so this point is moot.

clothes: Is there a reason to wear clothes? do they do anything besides encumber (i haven't noticed)

You won't understand that looks are important for some people. Admittedly, comfort isn't in the game now, but eventually running around naked in the winter should provide penalties. Of course, the biggest knock on not wearing cloths is that it announces to the world "I'm a naked ganker." Since people can tell from a long ways away that you are into PvP but aren't risking anything, they will avoid contact with you.

food: is there a reason to eat anything besides fish?

Why should anyone spend time fishing? You can forage anywhere. By improving your forage skill you can find better quality resources that may have a use at some point.

skills: is there a reason to take anything besides basketry and tool making?

Taking toolmaking at the start is probably the worst choices a starting player can make (along with masonry and woodcraft, but these secondary crafts shouldn't be starting choices). The highest tool recipe is level 5 and it is easy to gain skill. Weapon making and architecture start with better tools for toolmaking, and since it is harder to gather the resources for weapons/buildings the extra 20 skill points save you more time.

Basket making is good only because it is the only way you can make containers. Right now, since baskets don't wear out, the only reason to be a high level basket maker is for high quality twine. Basketry might sound good for the anti-social loner that never wants to trade, but in reality you will have a harder (read near impossible if you don't start with the right tool recipe) time getting the tools to continue crafting.

ok. Just to hilight a problem...from a min max standpoint wwhats the 'best'.

This is the biggest misunderstanding. Xsyon is not the right game for min-maxers. The numbers are hidden by design to encourage players to diversify and experiment.

For the min-maxer, there are plenty of games out there where you can go on the forums and find out that: "This is June. The FOTM class is the NecroRogue. The best build and gear for the NecroRogue is ...." You can also play these games where you and four other NecroRogues spend hours in chat begging for a healer so you can get the gear you want.

Ravelli

[MrDDT]

Ravelli have you played this game?
Because you are wrong in so many points that are not opinions but facts.

OP knives do NOT yield more bones.
Shovels already dont wear out.
Water is pretty much in 2 mins of or less of anywhere on the map. Fishing is by far the fastest way to get hunger up.

I mean I can go on.
This game is easy for MIN-Maxers. You can train every skill in the game and that's the best way to be good at everything to be everything. Major issues with that. I would rather play a game with classes, then a game in which has no soft cap and people are forced to train every skill in the game to compete.
I would rather have a softcap, stat cap, and choices in how I want to make my necro/rogue/mage/warrior/priest.

How can you tell people are into PVP from a long ways away? Heck I cant even see a persons name until they are in like 80m of me, I lose site of people at 110m.

FYI I always wear bone armor. Just throwing that out there.

[thurgond]

Sorry, but better quality knives do yield more bones and get less failures. A couple wipes ago I chose hunting but picked the PO axe. I typically had 1-2 complete failures de-boning a critter. Currently, with a PO or VHQ knife and the same 25 hunting skill (never raises, never put points into it), I have never had a complete failure and usually get the max number of bones. I've haven't done any teraforming since decay went in, so I haven't checked on shovel wear.

Eating fish is the fastest way to get hunger up, but for time spent gathering you can get as full with foraging. In the time it takes for one cast, I can forage 3-4 times. You never catch more than one fish at a time, while foraging can find multiple munchies. My point is that fishing isn't the obvious only choice. If a soft cap is implemented, I'd rather have high scavenging/foraging/logging/hunting than fishing.

I can't tell if someone is into PvP, but I can see if they are naked long before they get within weapons range. I'm more wary around naked players because they may be an "I don't want to risk anything" ganker. You always go out looking for player combat which makes my point on when you should wear bone armor. If I go far from camp, I'm looking to haul back bones or handles so I wear leather as a tradeoff of protection for weight.

The typical min-maxer is looking to be over powered with the least effort. Maxing all skills isn't a min-maxer strategy.

I'm not arguing against soft caps, Xsyon needs them. It also needs reasons like comfort for the stuff that's in the game now. My point is that there are reasons to use things currently in the game that you and the OP don't see.

Ravelli

[Dubanka]

it's like bizarro land.

you're right, i've just got a very poor understanding of the game.

/boggle.