Do you really want another DF or MO?

[MrDDT]

No offense Dub but you're letting your sense of superiority and holier than thou attitude cloud your judgment.

Led by the nose? You can't imagine someone a bit different than you also enjoying an FFA environment but with something else in mind?

I'll be more than willing to agree that as soon as you say FFA PVP, the rabid must destroy folks get tunnel vision and sign on for a game where they don't like anything that's actually in it, they have no patience or hope that combat will improve, and yet they're determined to make everything about FFA PVP.

If you were to look at what you and your folks, in and out of squad are up to, you'd see it's pretty much folly. You see those six capital letters and start wanting to hump the server... take a step back, consider the complete game, the whole thing, and try to understand it's more complex than six capital letters. It's not going to be dumbed down to pewpewland. Or at least, I'm just so terrified of that happening!! Yeah, right, laughable mate.

I'm not remotely convinced you're sticking around because you have hope for the game. You're sticking around because you sold your friends a game that wasn't what you advertised to them, and now you hope to wrangle it more to their liking. Go fish.

You didnt say anything about how most carebears would avoid FFA PVP games at all, without reading any further. Jadzia even admitted this (or agreed to it, whichever word floats your boat).

Having said the game is going to be FFA PVP, most of the carebears that are WOW/Rift types said "Next" and didnt even bother any more.
While PVP people saw those 6 letters and came to the game.

So IMO at the start of this game the playerbase was PVP focused. Maybe not all rabid PVPers. But surely more than the avg MMO gamer.

Now over time, the game has changed from FFA PVP, to almost no PVP at all. Not just because of the crazy low server pop, but because of basic changes in the game system, and the lack of support for any kind of PVP combat. Like Safe zones staying, able to run away, not able to full loot, combat being so broken its unplayable. (Yes I know a lot of these effect PVE carebears too)
So most of the player base being PVP focused, left the game. Not only because of the overall game issues, but because of the shift of the squeaky wheel effect. In this case the wheel were the carebears.

[Book]

You didnt say anything about how most carebears would avoid FFA PVP games at all, without reading any further. Jadzia even admitted this (or agreed to it, whichever word floats your boat).

Having said the game is going to be FFA PVP, most of the carebears that are WOW/Rift types said "Next" and didnt even bother any more.
While PVP people saw those 6 letters and came to the game.

So IMO at the start of this game the playerbase was PVP focused. Maybe not all rabid PVPers. But surely more than the avg MMO gamer.

Now over time, the game has changed from FFA PVP, to almost no PVP at all. Not just because of the crazy low server pop, but because of basic changes in the game system, and the lack of support for any kind of PVP combat. Like Safe zones staying, able to run away, not able to full loot, combat being so broken its unplayable. (Yes I know a lot of these effect PVE carebears too)
So most of the player base being PVP focused, left the game. Not only because of the overall game issues, but because of the shift of the squeaky wheel effect. In this case the wheel were the carebears.

Well sure, there's pvp in FFA PVP games, pretty much a given. Beauty of Xsyon is there's more to it than just that. I met a number of pvpers I got along with absolutely great. They weren't full of themselves and didn't think FFA PVP meant they should run out of their camp and kill anyone that happened to walk by.

They never once felt the need to call me a carebear just because I enjoyed another facet of the game that has just as much reason to exist in a sandbox game as pvp. They understood full well that ffa pvp was a great part of a good sandbox game and just that, a part of it.

They didn't sign up for a game in which they don't like anything that's actually in it. They liked what was in it, they also like pvp. They understood there's more to life than rah rah I'm so strong and uber.

Seems to me the squeakiest wheel at the moment are the few, the very few that want a war game and aren't willing or capable of understanding there's more to Xsyon than that, and that's what makes it a great game in the long run.

Dumbing down to pewpew will please them for sure. It would also be unfortunate given the chance at complexity already started in this game. If that complexity was brought in as the game developed, well... cool. Sucks for those who wanted pewpew only. Since it's such a popular model I'm sure there'll be plenty of other such games cuz you know, so many people want pewpewmmoworld.

Addition: my point is, no offense to anyone in particular, but just can't understand the logic...
when a tribe of folks don't care about the trees in game, they don't care about the fact that it's completely innovative in being Tahoe topography, they don't care about the grass, hills, lake, so on... they hate crafting and everything involved in it, they just basically want to kill and burn down people's camps...

Does this really seem like the game for them? Why spend sooo much dev investment on those portions of the game if that's all it was intended to be, just hordes running about playing war?? Makes no sense at all. All they see is FFA PVP. Man, for goodness's sakes, there is so much MORE here than that.

[MrDDT]

Well sure, there's pvp in FFA PVP games, pretty much a given. Beauty of Xsyon is there's more to it than just that. I met a number of pvpers I got along with absolutely great. They weren't full of themselves and didn't think FFA PVP meant they should run out of their camp and kill anyone that happened to walk by.

They never once felt the need to call me a carebear just because I enjoyed another facet of the game that has just as much reason to exist in a sandbox game as pvp. They understood full well that ffa pvp was a great part of a good sandbox game and just that, a part of it.

They didn't sign up for a game in which they don't like anything that's actually in it. They liked what was in it, they also like pvp. They understood there's more to life than rah rah I'm so strong and uber.

Seems to me the squeakiest wheel at the moment are the few, the very few that want a war game and aren't willing or capable of understanding there's more to Xsyon than that, and that's what makes it a great game in the long run.

Dumbing down to pewpew will please them for sure. It would also be unfortunate given the chance at complexity already started in this game. If that complexity was brought in as the game developed, well... cool. Sucks for those who wanted pewpew only. Since it's such a popular model I'm sure there'll be plenty of other such games cuz you know, so many people want pewpewmmoworld.

Addition: my point is, no offense to anyone in particular, but just can't understand the logic...
when a tribe of folks don't care about the trees in game, they don't care about the fact that it's completely innovative in being Tahoe topography, they don't care about the grass, hills, lake, so on... they hate crafting and everything involved in it, they just basically want to kill and burn down people's camps...

Does this really seem like the game for them? Why spend sooo much dev investment on those portions of the game if that's all it was intended to be, just hordes running about playing war?? Makes no sense at all. All they see is FFA PVP. Man, for goodness's sakes, there is so much MORE here than that.

Of course the PVPers are going to be squeaking more now than ever before, because the game is a carebear type game now. The game has changed so Im sure you have met a lot of less hard core PVPers now the game is more carebear than what it started as because most of the PVPers have left the game once news came out about how they are going carebear.

I dont know who you think is running around playing war and burning everything in sight down. Im pretty sure Dub, and me are the squeakiest wheels here, and neither want that in a game.

Diffuclty vs Reward. Give the PVPers combat that works, things to fight for, and rewards for those things.
Im not sure where burning down trees and tearing out grass have to do with that part in PVPers lives and in fact given the choice, they would likely rather do something like, break a wall down to kill people to get their rewards from it than tear out grass or burn a tree.

You keep saying about how the PVPers should look for another game, because if its so great to have PVP then why dont they find another game. Do you not understand that this was a PVP game? FFA PVP, with Full loot, removal of safe zones after a short start up time.
Now its, totally changed from that. Almost no looting, broken combat, lack of warfare, and safe zones anywhere at anytime.

[Jadzia]

You should be able to flee most of the time, especially if you've built up decent running skill and wear light armor.

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthrea...ions/page4/#34
This is a quote from March 2010. It was always planned like this, flee from combat, limited looting, consensual warfare. Stop saying that it has changed...it is simply not true.


Added after 7 minutes:

It makes perfect sense. PVPers were an overwhelming majority of the player base. They all left. We are having a discussion about how to bring back the majority while not upsetting the minority

Incoming: PVPers aren't the majority.

To which I say, please don't be ignorant. Only a fool could say that they aren't.

Can you please prove your statement with any kind of data ? We had so many polls about safe zones...in all polls the majority of the people wanted safe zones. All of these polls were started by PvPers who was thinking like you, and every time they were proved wrong.

Do you not understand that this was a PVP game?

This is what YOU don't understand. This has never been a PvP game, Jordi stated so many times that while Xsyon does have PvP it is NOT a PvP focused game. The driving force is not PvP, and every player will have the space for their gamestyle in the game. That is why he always planned the 'flee from fight' system, that is why he planned consensual warfare and limited looting, that is why we have so many skill and will have even more which are not related to PvP in any way.

Book is right. So many people stop reading when they see "FFA PvP" and they don't read the restrictions and conditions. And later when they do meet with these they start to complain.

[NorCalGooey]

Can you please prove your statement with any kind of data ? We had so many polls about safe zones...in all polls the majority of the people wanted safe zones. All of these polls were started by PvPers who was thinking like you, and every time they were proved wrong.


This is what YOU don't understand. This has never been a PvP game, Jordi stated so many times that while Xsyon does have PvP it is NOT a PvP focused game. The driving force is not PvP, and every player will have the space for their gamestyle in the game. That is why he always planned the 'flee from fight' system, that is why he planned consensual warfare and limited looting, that is why we have so many skill and will have even more which are not related to PvP in any way.

Book is right. So many people stop reading when they see "FFA PvP" and they don't read the restrictions and conditions. And later when they do meet with these they start to complain.

Jadzia, all the proof in the world won't convince you. Those polls were only somewhat equal because PVE carebears were exponentially more abundant on the forums at that time. That's generally how it is in every game, except some of the PVPers finally decided to fight back in the past few months.

What you don't understand Jadzia, which is fine because it's hard to see what the future brings (just look at history), is that you don't even want the systems you propose as much as the ones PVPers propose. You just THINK you do, but it's apparent you have no idea of how these ideas work in practice. Because they work nothing like you think they will in theory. I've sided with you on as much as is practical to side with you about. My latest proposal is the most carebear and protection you can possibly get without ruining the game. It doesn't get anymore than safe zone than that because if it does, the game won't go anywhere. It's just fact and I wouldn't say so unless I knew it.

I don't get how you DON'T understand, sandbox by definition is high risk PvP. You SERIOUSLY aren't okay with that last proposal? Then there's no getting through to you. I gave GOOD aligned tribes so many entitlements in that proposal that if you still can't accept it, then there's just no helping you. You can't seriously feel that entitled. This is an MMO, not mine craft. Hell, even in mine craft you have more risk and distractions while building than in this game.

It's really truly sad that you can't see this is a PvP game BY DEFAULT. There's no way around it...DON'T YOU GET THAT? There's no other way to drive game play without PVP...I just don't understand why you don't understand. Please try and explain why YOU feel entitled to play Xsyon like it's a theme park game when really that's the farthest thing from the truth?

Whether it be combat PVP or political PVP...that is the main driving force behind every sandbox game. Oh and PLEASE stop saying the DEVs side with you. The DEVs know that this game cannot survive on AESTHETIC world building and crafting ALONE.

edit: when people were actually playing before, not much PVP even happened. especially between tribes. it's due to the whole reputation thing and how much that comes into play for pvpers too (as well as safe zones ofc). I can say with 100% confidence that if save zones were removed after the lag issues were fixed, I would have had a lot more fun building the city WHILE fighting with Pandemic...but due to the whole reputation thing, when we saw any random person we would politely whisper them to see who they were. almost never did we attack them. still, doesn't mean we don't want the option to have a potential enemy attack us on our land. however, i do see why safe zones are in for early prelude. it makes perfect sense. they just shouldn't stay.

[MrDDT]

http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthrea...ions/page4/#34
This is a quote from March 2010. It was always planned like this, flee from combat, limited looting, consensual warfare. Stop saying that it has changed...it is simply not true.


Added after 7 minutes:


Can you please prove your statement with any kind of data ? We had so many polls about safe zones...in all polls the majority of the people wanted safe zones. All of these polls were started by PvPers who was thinking like you, and every time they were proved wrong.


This is what YOU don't understand. This has never been a PvP game, Jordi stated so many times that while Xsyon does have PvP it is NOT a PvP focused game. The driving force is not PvP, and every player will have the space for their gamestyle in the game. That is why he always planned the 'flee from fight' system, that is why he planned consensual warfare and limited looting, that is why we have so many skill and will have even more which are not related to PvP in any way.

Book is right. So many people stop reading when they see "FFA PvP" and they don't read the restrictions and conditions. And later when they do meet with these they start to complain.

Yep fleeing from combat was planned I agree.
Limited looting? Did I miss something here? I think you dont remember him saying full loot was in the game. So where do you see "limited" looting?
Consensual warfare? Again yes part of the plan of course with the fleeing, but not the ONLY part of the plan with how tribes were going to be. Safe zones were to be removed after prelude.

Polls are worthless first off, and second off, I agree with safe zones. So you saying that a poll would favor pvpers not wanting safezones is pretty crazy. Most pvpers understand the need for safezones. They dont understand safezones anywhere anytime.

Limited looting was NOT planned.

Full loot was planned with a push to WANT to not full loot with the choice being the players not a restriction.

Death results in some stat and skill loss and allows the victor to fully loot the player. This is not without complications and consequences for the victor.
- Carrying capacity is limited, so fully looting another player will not be practical.

BAM FULL LOOT. How can you be 100% wrong with your OWN LINK?
From your own link, and a real quote, another reason why you take something and you try to twist it to what you want. Truth is the game WAS planned how most PVPers like it.

Safe zones at the start so new players and the start of the game wouldnt be an all out gank fest. People would be allowed to build up.
Full looting FFA PVP game.
People able to flee easy from combat, so that skilled players, and newbs could choose their battles.


From what I just said, its a PVPers dream game with rare resources, contested totem areas etc. Which were ALL planned from the start.

Now we have, nothing is contested, safe zones anywhere anytime, perma player made safe zones btw. Looting which isnt perma, safe baskets littering the areas, and a combat system that is so broken no one wants it.

Yes it has changed totally.

[Larsa]

... I don't get how you DON'T understand, sandbox by definition is high risk PvP. ...

I usually try to stay out of these discussions but I couldn't resist the quoted part of your post.

How, on hell and earth, can you have such a narrow view of the genre to claim that sandbox by definition is high risk PvP? That's a fundamentally screwed perception of reality.

Maybe, for you, personally, you don't enjoy games without high risk PvP and that would be a fair statement but stating that sandbox equals high risk PvP is just completely off.

[NorCalGooey]

Really? Name a sandbox game that has done well without conflict and political pvp being the driving force of sandbox game play? not to mention they all involve awesome risk/reward scenarios

You tell me what we are suppose to do then. Build all this stuff, craft all this stuff, and sit around in a circle jerk doing emotes? Fun.

It's not just my view, it's the view of successful sand box games. Again, history is an important thing to look at.

[MrDDT]

I usually try to stay out of these discussions but I couldn't resist the quoted part of your post.

How, on hell and earth, can you have such a narrow view of the genre to claim that sandbox by definition is high risk PvP? That's a fundamentally screwed perception of reality.

Maybe, for you, personally, you don't enjoy games without high risk PvP and that would be a fair statement but stating that sandbox equals high risk PvP is just completely off.

I dont know about the "high risk" part but yes a the truest sandbox game would have open pvp. 100% open.
Sandbox means able to do anything. Building, and killing wise. With as much as they can based around players making their own content.

Now, just because a game doesnt have PVP in it, doesnt mean it cant be a sandbox. But if you were to make a game as close as you can to the truest sense of the word sandbox. Open pvp would be part of that. As would many other things.
I wouldnt want to play a game thats 100% truest sandbox, as I believe its not the best workings for a game, nor my playstyle.

[NorCalGooey]

Well EVE is a little too high risk for me, but look how successful it is. It's not because it's a space game. It's the PVP system and freedom to lose and gain. Stuff in EVE has very high value, the reason Xsyon isn't high risk (even without safe zones) is that the gear isn't very valuable, currently.

Also, EVE is high risk because your ship is everything. It would be almost equivalent to losing your whole character in Xsyon. Except if you were rich or know people, since you keep all your skills you can just buy another ship. But it's still a dent to the wallet and there's only so many times you can lose a ship before its literally like perma death. No ISK, no ship. You have to know people to get back into the action. Still, look how successful that game is.

then look how successful Wurm is. haha

BOTH sandbox games. Again...what are we suppose to do currently in game? Aesthetic building/crafting and circle jerk. Yeah, you can also raise all your skills equally to try and get a lot of hit points, but what's the point in that without PVP? at the very least fun PVP monsters (not animals that are a pushover, monsters..this game is part fantasy after all)