Do you really want another DF or MO?

[NorCalGooey]

EXACTLY this is the exact problem in every mmo i have played with open world/flagged/zoned pvp, the players that dont want to pvp argue that they should be able to get a free pass into pvp land because there not interested in pvp they just want whats in there. The Risk/Reward model in there heads doesn't apply to them.


How ever everyone forgets that: "Every PvP player is also a PvE player, but not every PvE player PvPs" they just want to punish pvp players for a playstyle they dont agree with, but pvpers dont get to punish pve players for there play style. ????

You kinda see how it really is one sided because one group has to ruin a game for everyone that can handle there shit.
IE:
you can't climb trees anymore because the kid in a wheel chair wanted to be equal and fell and now his arms dont work either.
No more fireworks because some kids burned a warehouse down.
Were going to prohibit alcohol with caffine in it because some dumb ass stayed up for 3 days drank 24 Four Loko's and then shot him self in the head..
You can't handle your drugs and you called the cops and got everyone arrested....

One group has to go out and ruin a game for the whole community.

my suggestion: http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthrea...4723#post84723

Really truly sad isn't it? That's the no risk instant gratification culture we live in these days.

No one deserves a free pass. It's like saying when humans first existed, the most valuable resource was food and water. If there were 10,000 humans, but only enough resources for 1,000 to survive...9,000 would have to die either by starvation/dehydration or PVP.

That's the exact thing true carebears want in this game. To have a free slice of the pie in a world where there isn't enough pie around for it to be free.

[Jadzia]

EXACTLY this is the exact problem in every mmo i have played with open world/flagged/zoned pvp, the players that dont want to pvp argue that they should be able to get a free pass into pvp land because there not interested in pvp they just want whats in there. The Risk/Reward model in there heads doesn't apply to them.


How ever everyone forgets that: "Every PvP player is also a PvE player, but not every PvE player PvPs" they just want to punish pvp players for a playstyle they dont agree with, but pvpers dont get to punish pve players for there play style. ????

You kinda see how it really is one sided because one group has to ruin a game for everyone that can handle there shit.
IE:
you can't climb trees anymore because the kid in a wheel chair wanted to be equal and fell and now his arms dont work either.
No more fireworks because some kids burned a warehouse down.
Were going to prohibit alcohol with caffine in it because some dumb ass stayed up for 3 days drank 24 Four Loko's and then shot him self in the head..
You can't handle your drugs and you called the cops and got everyone arrested....

One group has to go out and ruin a game for the whole community.

my suggestion: http://www.xsyon.com/forum/showthrea...4723#post84723

I think its more like 2 people are going to a hotel. One of them chooses to go by train. The other one loves parachuting, so he wants to fly above the hotel and jump. At first he wants to force the other person to jump with him...when he is not willing to he starts to demand a cheaper price in the hotel. Why ? Because he took a bigger risk when traveling there. Although he chose that because he loved it....

'Carebears' don't want to force anyone to go by train. They just don't want to be forced to parachute. And they don't get why would they reward the guy who chose that, who did it for his own fun.

[Dubanka]

I think its more like 2 people are going to a hotel. One of them chooses to go by train. The other one loves parachuting, so he wants to fly above the hotel and jump. At first he wants to force the other person to jump with him...when he is not willing to he starts to demand a cheaper price in the hotel. Why ? Because he took a bigger risk when traveling there. Although he chose that because he loved it....

'Carebears' don't want to force anyone to go by train. They just don't want to be forced to parachute. And they don't get why would they reward the guy who chose that, who did it for his own fun.

but even in your analogy, there is a benefit.

The guy that goes by plane and jumps is goign to get tot he destination well ahead of the guy going by train...so part of the choice mechanism was that the guy that CHOSE to go by train CHOSE a slower mode of transportation. So while, yes, they both share the commonality of making it to the destination, they definitely did not do so on equal footing.

[NorCalGooey]

I think its more like 2 people are going to a hotel. One of them chooses to go by train. The other one loves parachuting, so he wants to fly above the hotel and jump. At first he wants to force the other person to jump with him...when he is not willing to he starts to demand a cheaper price in the hotel. Why ? Because he took a bigger risk when traveling there. Although he chose that because he loved it....

'Carebears' don't want to force anyone to go by train. They just don't want to be forced to parachute. And they don't get why would they reward the guy who chose that, who did it for his own fun.

Fun is not the only incentive for PvP, though. At least in most sand box games.

[joexxxz]

I think its more like 2 people are going to a hotel. One of them chooses to go by train. The other one loves parachuting, so he wants to fly above the hotel and jump. At first he wants to force the other person to jump with him...when he is not willing to he starts to demand a cheaper price in the hotel. Why ? Because he took a bigger risk when traveling there. Although he chose that because he loved it....

'Carebears' don't want to force anyone to go by train. They just don't want to be forced to parachute. And they don't get why would they reward the guy who chose that, who did it for his own fun.

Ok Jazdia you totally confusing yourself. No one is forcing you to travel to the hotel on the airplane. No one is forcing you to PVP. Thats all.

If you dont want to PVP, then dont do it. But dont tell me that I cant travel to the hotel in the airplane???

EDIT: What you suggesting is that I cant travel to the hotel in the airplane??? Gotcha!!!

[Jadzia]

but even in your analogy, there is a benefit.

The guy that goes by plane and jumps is goign to get tot he destination well ahead of the guy going by train...so part of the choice mechanism was that the guy that CHOSE to go by train CHOSE a slower mode of transportation. So while, yes, they both share the commonality of making it to the destination, they definitely did not do so on equal footing.

Not if the train traveler started his journey earlier Or was smart enough to book his room by phone.

Fun is not the only incentive for PvP, though. At least in most sand box games.

I'm sure you are right, and I'm sure those games try to get as much players to PvP as they can. So encouraging them to do so.

In this game there are rewards for PvP, loot, later on sieges and taking over cities. I'm glad if there are rewards for PvP....as long as these rewards don't ruin the fun of the other side. So if you PvP and get a very special sieging machine recipe for that thats great. Or a rare resource that is only needed to craft PvP equipment. But if you get something the other side needs too (like a resource that is needed for everyday life) and at the same time the other side's access is limited or even eliminated to said resource thats something I can't agree.

In every game an item has value if it is hard to obtain. I wouldn't mind some rare recipes to be placed in high PvP areas (if we ever get anything like that), so that these recipes would be even more valuable. But these stuffs should be things that are not required to develop a character or to enjoy the game fully...more like a special item, even a vanity one. Actually in all of the games I played the most expensive stuffs were vanity items which had no actual use.

I would agree players to get more combat exp in high PvP areas (like 5% more) when fighting (mobs or players). That way everyone can develop but the ones who prefer a more daring environment can get the feeling that they benefit from it.

@joexxxz: nice to see you, joe, been long ! Try to read my post again, perhaps you will understand it.

[Dubanka]

Thanks for making my point jad.

Yes, the train traveller can indeed make it to the hotel at the same time as the plane traveler if they take extra time to get there.

The train traveler takes a safe, albeit slow, mode of travle; while the plane traveler elects a much faster, if much rskier mode (jumping out of an airplane can have negative side effects)

Risk rewardm...speed at risk of deat, vs safety at the expense iof speed

[Jadzia]

Thanks for making my point jad.

Yes, the train traveller can indeed make it to the hotel at the same time as the plane traveler if they take extra time to get there.

The train traveler takes a safe, albeit slow, mode of travle; while the plane traveler elects a much faster, if much rskier mode (jumping out of an airplane can have negative side effects)

Risk rewardm...speed at risk of deat, vs safety at the expense iof speed

I would doubt that if we count all the preparations needed for the flight and the parachute then the jump is faster. But even if it is, the guy has no right to demand a better room from the hotel owner, or even demand to get the booked room of the train traveler....he saved his own time ( if he did at all) and he did nothing that should be rewarded by the hotel owner.

Check my last suggestion... a bit more combat exp in PvP area, thus bit faster character development. Saving your time...but not getting access to special stuffs

[shadowlz]

All these parachuting-phobes makes me sad. Its actually a very fun experience and is completely safe, more people die in train accidents then parachuting accidents. I don't know why these train riding jerkoff have a beef with parachuting, it should be on everyone's list of things to do before they die.

Also What ever happened to taking a car to the hotel? You'll get there weeks ahead of the skydiver and days ahead of the train riders since both need booked. Unless the hotels on the other side of the world. But then the train couldn't get there. Maybe the other side of the US, but could the car driver take a flight and then call a cab? Still get there before the train man. And the skydiver would need to take a flight to the city, and book a skydiving lesson, unless he plans to jump from a Boeing 747.

[Dubanka]

I would doubt that if we count all the preparations needed for the flight and the parachute then the jump is faster. But even if it is, the guy has no right to demand a better room from the hotel owner, or even demand to get the booked room of the train traveler....he saved his own time ( if he did at all) and he did nothing that should be rewarded by the hotel owner.

Check my last suggestion... a bit more combat exp in PvP area, thus bit faster character development. Saving your time...but not getting access to special stuffs

im not letting you out of this one you started it.

he might not demand a better room, but there may be a better one available (Because he's there earlier)
heck becaue he dropped into the hotel's front lawn on a parachute the owner might just give him his best room, free, because he was so cool.
In everything you do there is a choice, there is a tradeoff...you don't get to reap the harvest if you don't plant the field (even if you lived in the same town).
And i think it would be correct to say, it's not 'risk reward', but 'effort reward'.
the easiest way to balance 'effort reward' is to treat all players equally.
Otherwise we are trying to correlate the effort to do a combat activity, to a non combat activity which is a dicey proposition at best.

Again, see my suggestion over in the save zone discussion in barracks. It correlates potential safety to player effort.


and you're last suggestion, as a means of appeasement, really just illustrates how little you understand 'our' motivations.

Character progressions are a means to an end. The larger game is the point. OUr motivation to develop skills and abilities (including crafting) is so that we can make the most efficient toon possible for use in the larger game.
Heck, fighting other players is just a means to an end (why i'm always talking bout a 'reason to fight').
We truly want to shape the world...or rather...try shape the world to whatever degree the game permits.
This doesnt necessarily mean we want to conquer it...this may mean keeping it from getting conquered.

Added after 15 minutes:

All these parachuting-phobes makes me sad. Its actually a very fun experience and is completely safe, more people die in train accidents then parachuting accidents. I don't know why these train riding jerkoff have a beef with parachuting, it should be on everyone's list of things to do before they die.

Also What ever happened to taking a car to the hotel? You'll get there weeks ahead of the skydiver and days ahead of the train riders since both need booked. Unless the hotels on the other side of the world. But then the train couldn't get there. Maybe the other side of the US, but could the car driver take a flight and then call a cab? Still get there before the train man. And the skydiver would need to take a flight to the city, and book a skydiving lesson, unless he plans to jump from a Boeing 747.

sky diving has perceived risk..tis all.

and you are exactly correct on, 'what about the car'.
most convenient, definitely the fastest for anything under 500 miles, but statistically the most dangerous means of travel. It is a choice.
air, is by far the fastest over long distances, very clunky over short, and they lose your luggage.
Train (or ship for that matter) is arguably the most comfortable way to travel, definitely not the fastest, nor as convenient or versatile as a car...but you're drinking champagne in the dining car so who cares.

everything is a choice...everything has strengths or weaknessed under varying conditions.