What Xsyon Said...Yesterday

[Mactavendish]

My following responses to your post are not designed to irritate you, but are intended to help you see another point of view.

to ME... Xsyon's reply's are in keeping with what I have always believed to be the way this game is and was supposed to be.

A game where blind ganking would not take place often if at all, where what WE did determined how safe or unsafe we were, and were WE could as a tribe or group could choose to participate in some aspect of the game or not, and be allowed to remain in that state unhindered by other groups that wanted to prevent that.

I know you don't believe that such a game will succeed and perhaps it won't, but I SURE want to see it happen and will stick around and see if I can help see it come to pass, by paying to play, giving feedback, and simply hope I get my wish.

ALSO: I fully understood this game would change in many ways as it is developed, that it was already a work in progress, was not complete, and would at times have broken pieces as they work on new ideas or try new systems. The fact they have a test server helps my perspective even more as I don't have to deal with many of the effects of improvement while I play.

[NorCalGooey]

While you may want the game to be one way, that's not really what this thread is about. It's about how SOME of the answers are too vague for us to know what he means, so we start debating the meaning in threads on here but we never really get anywhere but the same old arguments. It'd be nice for more clarification on the only issue that seems to matter right now, safe zones and his vision for the future of safe zones.

[Osirrus]

+1

Absolutely spot on Dub.

but i am starting to think that xsyon and his team have no idea how the new systems will be implemented themselves!

that is why we are getting vague answers.

everybody always seems completely focused on the current issue whatever it may be.. lag/animal/pvp

what i would love to see is a complete road map of the next 2 years or so (no need to actually date anything)

we all want to know what sytems are going to be worked on next and how the mechanics are going to work. Not 3 hours after it has gone live on the server, but months in advance. have a cleary defined goal of what you want the game to be(at the moment i dont think even Xsyon knows)and plan for it in full detail of how everything will interact with everything else.

[MrDDT]

I dont care about a road map, I care about updates in the game.
If this next update comes into the game, and its working well, people will play, people will adapt.
If you dont like the direction the game is heading, then quit, or post your ideas on the forums and maybe people will agree with you. Its clear the devs listen.

Right now the game is very boring, and people have already dropped off like flies. With the next update depending on how its done with regards to contested stuff, and rare resources. Well make the game fun for a lot of people with the desync combat issue fixed. M&B combat, and rares having an effect on crafted stuff. All will give people focus, and bring the fun factor back into the game.

How you control contested areas, how many contested areas, how much open pvp, and safe zones all over the map, will effect who is playing, but at least there will be a lot more.

I believe you CAN please most of the carebears, and most of the PVPers at the same time. But really that shouldnt be the goal right now. The goal I believe is to get a working fun game for people. Balance and work out the details later.

[Osirrus]

I dont care about a road map, I care about updates in the game.
If this next update comes into the game, and its working well, people will play, people will adapt.
If you dont like the direction the game is heading, then quit, or post your ideas on the forums and maybe people will agree with you. Its clear the devs listen.

Right now the game is very boring, and people have already dropped off like flies. With the next update depending on how its done with regards to contested stuff, and rare resources. Well make the game fun for a lot of people with the desync combat issue fixed. M&B combat, and rares having an effect on crafted stuff. All will give people focus, and bring the fun factor back into the game.

How you control contested areas, how many contested areas, how much open pvp, and safe zones all over the map, will effect who is playing, but at least there will be a lot more.

I believe you CAN please most of the carebears, and most of the PVPers at the same time. But really that shouldnt be the goal right now. The goal I believe is to get a working fun game for people. Balance and work out the details later.

thats not what this thread is about DDT, ofc we all want the new patch in asap.

but this thread is about the vagueness of replies.

do try to stay on topic old chap.

[Trenchfoot]

@Dub

Right on.

Here's my private interpretation.

1. It's difficult to answer this as these aren't all statements that I've made about the game, but I'll try.
2. Xsyon should be an open world, but not with attacking or destroying anything at all times.
3. Structures should have a level of safety, depending on defenses and choices made by players (alliances, choice to war or not etc.).
4. Siege mechanics have not been planned out yet. This was not part of the original design, and as I've stated before, it's something I'd like to add as many players have requested this. I want to first examine other games that successfully deal with siege systems.
5. Yes, you should be able to make peace.
6. Achievements should server different purposes, whether they provide something useful or are just for bragging rights.
7. Enemies should be formidable (and we will make creatures stronger soon, they are increasing in power, but not fast enough).
8. Xsyon should be a zone free seamless world.
9. The world should change dynamically, as determined by players.
10. Attaining 'victory' and maintaining safe zones through hard work (I think that's what you're getting at) is on the table.

1. Of course, the questions were sort of 'loaded' from Xsyons perspective. Also, my statements as to what I want had nothing to do with what or what hasn't been said. It was simply to establish what I am looking for in a game, regardless of previous statements. It was the same as asking 'Am I going to get some all or none of what I personally want out of this game?'.

2. This statement is highly likely to conflict with the answer to 8. How will this be achieved?

3. If this means 'walls are as safe as it gets', but with the caveat that if you choose to be a warring tribe your walls will be easier to breach, I might be able to live with that.

4. The mere fact that walls are designed into the game to begin with lends itself to the idea of sieges. This idea is reenforced by the fact that everywhere outside the walls is FFA PVP. I'm saying that because I want the devs to know that this is sort of confusing to me, not that I want to argue a point. If walls were never meant to be besieged, and were simply a mechanism to establish safe zones, then this can make more sense to me.

5. I expected this one. It was a loaded question to see how confident the devs are about their planned solution to the issues of waging war. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I'll take this to mean 'We're just getting our sea legs on this issue'.

6. Worse case this means 'Conflict will serve no other purpose than conflict.'. Best case this statement can make sense as long as 'something useful' doesn't mean 'something useful to have an advantage in gaining more bragging rights'. Something useful for what?

7. I think he misunderstood this one. Though I like that they're making creatures tougher. I meant my human opponents. ie. If I play evil I want good to be a 'real' threat not gimped so we can just run the server. Likewise if I play good, I don't want a gimped brady bunch sort of evil that I can toy with at my leisure.

8. I love this statement, but it doesn't make sense to me in light of answer 2. and 3.

9. Great! Now if we can make this jive with 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. and 7. I'll have more confidence in this statement.

10. Yes that was part of what I was getting at. I asked this mainly to address the death problem. I can't enter into a victory by killing my enemies, because they just respawn. So something has to be in place where I can achieve a level of definitive victory over them. ie. pull their I teeth and claws so they are no longer a threat until they go off somewhere and grow them back.

[Book]

Perhaps he's implementing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_%28development%29

to game design?

Vague so as to not lock into a position prematurely?

I have to admit, the "you should be able to make peace" response made me smirk.

I do feel clarificated (<--- not a word) with regard to the new zones being opened up and how that's going to affect things.
Feels like a compromise to me in a sense, yes there are safe zones, but no safe zones will not be placed directly on top of rares.

Thus, there's still the safety but there's also a reason to fight when you get to the rares position... that's different than what we have in the current zones, but a step in the direction many were asking for. Not a leap perhaps, but certainly a step.

To make the new zones be fully contestable so then people can wait as long as it takes to implement the siege mechanics? That wouldn't really be productive either would it?

At some point I'd like to do the math on what percentage of the whole map 50 zones will be. My guess is maybe not that much which opens the possibility for different things in the future... which will be determined when that future comes closer to the present than it is now.

If people do come back with the combat fixes and new zones and other things... Some will pick up their current totems and move to a new location which will also open up the current part of the map... it's a process.

Dub omitted the first part of the answer that points out some of the things Trench was saying were not things Xsyon ever said would happen. I found that telling if you combine it with Xsyon's bio in which he says he wanted to create the game he's wanted to play since he first sat down at a computer...
Player input is obviously taken into consideration, look at thirst and hunger, BUT, at the end of the day, the man is working on the vision he originally wanted to develop. All things will remain in that context.

I personally find that very encouraging and reassuring.

[Jadzia]

Funny thread, Dub
When I first read Trench's questions I was like poor guy...his intention is good but what answers he would get lol. If you want clear answers you have to ask much much more defined questions.

I want the ability to make peace (through war if necessary).

Like this. What answer did he expect...ok you want to make peace...sure you can. Shake the hand of your enemy, kiss him and its done. Or smoke a peace-pipe. Whatever

I want the world to be able to change (areas become safe/unsafe through alliances/war dynamically, as the players carve out the world)

Very vague question imo. You can change the world by simply moving to another place...where you play an aggressive evil character, you band together with your evil friends and there you go the area is much more unsafe now. The question doesn't force an answer about the game mechanics.

The first question was a well defined one, and he got a correct and clear answer.

I want communities to be able to enter into a state of victory with the opportunity, through hard work, to retain that state (victory being defined as: made safe by our own hands, for our people to enjoy).

Again very vague. What does victory mean in Xsyon ? What does victory mean for Trench ? I don't know. Communities entering the state of victory...is that a victory if a tribe wins the fight over one of his enemy tribes ? Or only victory if they win the fight over all of their enemies ? Or only victory if they can conquer and rule even the peaceful tribes who never attacked them ?

The answer for the second part is clear imo : maintaining safe zone through hard work. Aka paying upkeep for safe zones, or paying a price for he expansion of the safe zone.

Even the word 'safe' doesn't mean the same for us. For me it means that something cannot be attacked, destroyed, looted, killed, anything. Safe. For Trench I guess it means something different...something that can be attacked but he has to protect it...I guess. That means totally unsafety for me.

Edit: another example for a question which will result a vague answer:

1a) Well you did have an idea that meant permanent safe zones, but is this still the plan to go forward with that specific idea to restrict rather than to give options to protect yourself?

to protect yourself...what does it mean ? If I can build walls and gates which give me 100% protection then I protected myself. But again I'm pretty sure VeryWiiTee didn't mean that.
So even if the answer was: yes later on you have to work to protect yourself, again we wouldn't know if that means 100% safe walls and gates or it means that we have to fight to keep these walls up.


So my conclusion is: we need much more specific questions if we want clear answers.

[NorCalGooey]

Funny thread, Dub
When I first read Trench's questions I was like poor guy...his intention is good but what answers he would get lol. If you want clear answers you have to ask much much more defined questions.


Like this. What answer did he expect...ok you want to make peace...sure you can. Shake the hand of your enemy, kiss him and its done. Or smoke a peace-pipe. Whatever


Very vague question imo. You can change the world by simply moving to another place...where you play an aggressive evil character, you band together with your evil friends and there you go the area is much more unsafe now. The question doesn't force an answer about the game mechanics.

The first question was a well defined one, and he got a correct and clear answer.



Again very vague. What does victory mean in Xsyon ? What does victory mean for Trench ? I don't know. Communities entering the state of victory...is that a victory if a tribe wins the fight over one of his enemy tribes ? Or only victory if they win the fight over all of their enemies ? Or only victory if they can conquer and rule even the peaceful tribes who never attacked them ?

The answer for the second part is clear imo : maintaining safe zone through hard work. Aka paying upkeep for safe zones, or paying a price for he expansion of the safe zone.

Even the word 'safe' doesn't mean the same for us. For me it means that something cannot be attacked, destroyed, looted, killed, anything. Safe. For Trench I guess it means something different...something that can be attacked but he has to protect it...I guess. That means totally unsafety for me.

Edit: another example for a question which will result a vague answer:

to protect yourself...what does it mean ? If I can build walls and gates which give me 100% protection then I protected myself. But again I'm pretty sure VeryWiiTee didn't mean that.
So even if the answer was: yes later on you have to work to protect yourself, again we wouldn't know if that means 100% safe walls and gates or it means that we have to fight to keep these walls up.

So my conclusion is: we need much more specific questions if we want clear answers.

I agree the vagueness goes both ways. But there is definitely detailed and well thought out questions people have asked that get an answer that seem to dodge the question. Examples Dub provided aren't the greatest

[Dubanka]

I agree the vagueness goes both ways. But there is definitely detailed and well thought out questions people have asked that get an answer that seem to dodge the question. Examples Dub provided aren't the greatest

i was lazy and just pulled them out of one place

perhaps not the best examples, but examples none the less.

My following responses to your post are not designed to irritate you, but are intended to help you see another point of view.

to ME... Xsyon's reply's are in keeping with what I have always believed to be the way this game is and was supposed to be.

and mac, i don't get irritated by internet forum play it's actually entertaining...especially when you prove exactly the point i'm making. When the devs posts an official response in this vague circular style it allow everyone to see their own ideas in it. You think he's talking to you. I think he's talking to me. This is all good...except for the fact that our desired end state are kinda sorta opposite each other.

The obtuse vagueness is great for early design, pre-build, early alpha marketing snippets on mmorpg.com or the like...when you are trying to drum up interest and create a following. When you want everyone to see what they want to see in your product. We're passed that. I'm pretty sure there is a plan in there somewhere, and that this isn't all just from the hip...it would be nice to get answers to questions based upon what you are going to do, or the options that are being considered in handling an issue. Those would be answers to questions as opposed to responses to questioins.

smiley face.