Why is firewood in the game if it has no use?

[VeryWiiTee]

Mmkay it wasn't in the first post, but in the second post.

"I don't have to bother doing that, but I'm not saying I'm a fan of it either." I missed the but, shit happens.
So, I'm stating that I don't like the system.. I'm just saying it's not different from other games. You make the easiest recipe to skill, you don't take the hardest or most complicated. You do the one that is easiest to gather ingredients for, you don't do the recipe with hard-to-get ingredients (whether they are high levelled or low levelled does not matter. You usually have easy-to-get ingredients and hard-to-get materials.

You still haven't understood my point. It's not that WoW actually has skilling restriction or any other game for that matter. It is the fact that you use the easiest to make recipe and level with that. You level with it until you can no longer level with it, then you take the next recipe that you can skill on which is the easiest to make (sometimes you do a hard-to-get material recipe because you just happen to have the mats.), when you can't skill on that recipe any longer you pick the next recipe that is the easiest to skill with. If you don't do that, you are seriously wasting money and time.

I'm doing the exact (and by exact I mean I follow the same principals) same thing in Xsyon, except I don't have to change recipe because there is no restrictions. I don't like that, I find it somewhat strange, but it doesn't remove the fact that you do the same procedure in any other game. And when/if Xsyon gets restriction I'd be doing the exact same thing as I were in WoW not just following the principal. Choose the easiest recipe to skill on.

I never meant to compare this to logging. I meant to compare it to this statement "You do the easiest and get the same exp."

[MrDDT]

Mmkay it wasn't in the first post, but in the second post.

"I don't have to bother doing that, but I'm not saying I'm a fan of it either." I missed the but, shit happens.
So, I'm stating that I don't like the system.. I'm just saying it's not different from other games. You make the easiest recipe to skill, you don't take the hardest or most complicated. You do the one that is easiest to gather ingredients for, you don't do the recipe with hard-to-get ingredients (whether they are high levelled or low levelled does not matter. You usually have easy-to-get ingredients and hard-to-get materials.

You still haven't understood my point. It's not that WoW actually has skilling restriction or any other game for that matter. It is the fact that you use the easiest to make recipe and level with that. You level with it until you can no longer level with it, then you take the next recipe that you can skill on which is the easiest to make (sometimes you do a hard-to-get material recipe because you just happen to have the mats.), when you can't skill on that recipe any longer you pick the next recipe that is the easiest to skill with. If you don't do that, you are seriously wasting money and time.

I'm doing the exact (and by exact I mean I follow the same principals) same thing in Xsyon, except I don't have to change recipe because there is no restrictions. I don't like that, I find it somewhat strange, but it doesn't remove the fact that you do the same procedure in any other game. And when/if Xsyon gets restriction I'd be doing the exact same thing as I were in WoW not just following the principal. Choose the easiest recipe to skill on.

I never meant to compare this to logging. I meant to compare it to this statement "You do the easiest and get the same exp."

First its not true like that in ANY game.

You could make stuff you use to level also. Of course you will make items that are easiest to use IF you are not making stuff you can use and it happens to level the skill.

The point is you are not using the EASIEST one forever. Meaning, in WOW it would be like skinning level 1 mobs until you are 400 skinning skill.
Or you make crappy level 1 items until you are level 400, and make level 85 items to use. That makes no sense. WOW doesnt do it, NO game does it that I know of, not even UO.

[Willowhawk]

Not to fan the flames, but most of these comparisons don't work because the mechanics are different in each game. Xsyon uses a quality scale for existing items where most other games give you new higher level items as you level up and make the lower level items obsolete with little or no skill gain. So in this respect the "New Recipes" in Xsyon are still low level items until you increase your skill level there by rewarding you with a better quality (new) item. As a consequence the difficulty of gaining higher level skill increases as you get higher level. So in practical terms it works quite well.
Example is logging. Cutting firewood seems simple enough however at level 50 it only requires approximately 50 logs for a skill increase while at level 90 it requires approximately 210 logs cut into firewood for a single skill increase. I'd be lucky to get one or two skill gains in an evening. Now the question of weather cutting firewood is easier than cutting trees I can't say since I've only been cutting the felled logs. Perhaps there is more skill gain in felling the tree? But even if that were true it isn't harder than cutting firewood. So the question is, if people think cutting logs into firewood is the easiest way to level for the same experience, I don't see the difference. And I am not sure what skill method could be used to improve this.

[MrDDT]

Not to fan the flames, but most of these comparisons don't work because the mechanics are different in each game. Xsyon uses a quality scale for existing items where most other games give you new higher level items as you level up and make the lower level items obsolete with little or no skill gain. So in this respect the "New Recipes" in Xsyon are still low level items until you increase your skill level there by rewarding you with a better quality (new) item. As a consequence the difficulty of gaining higher level skill increases as you get higher level. So in practical terms it works quite well.
Example is logging. Cutting firewood seems simple enough however at level 50 it only requires approximately 50 logs for a skill increase while at level 90 it requires approximately 210 logs cut into firewood for a single skill increase. I'd be lucky to get one or two skill gains in an evening. Now the question of weather cutting firewood is easier than cutting trees I can't say since I've only been cutting the felled logs. Perhaps there is more skill gain in felling the tree? But even if that were true it isn't harder than cutting firewood. So the question is, if people think cutting logs into firewood is the easiest way to level for the same experience, I don't see the difference. And I am not sure what skill method could be used to improve this.

Doing firewood is WAY better than doing felling. First felling a tree at lower skill levels takes 30 seconds. Doing firewood takes 5s. For the same skill gain.
Plus you can do firewood until you are level 100. Thats the problem there is no need to train on harder stuff.

Its better expressed by say, toolcrafting.
I could make wood needles 100000 of them and be a MASTER TOOLCRAFTER in all tools now. Yet the only thing Ive ever made was wood needles. Does that make any sense? Sure not everything can be real in game, but it also hurts econ, and make the game seem more of a grind.

[VeryWiiTee]

Of course you will make items that are easiest to use IF you are not making stuff you can use and it happens to level the skill.

And that was just my point really. I never use a skill to create something I can use while levelling. It is waste of materials as you can find way better items - regularly in instances provided the game runs with instance system and not an open dungeon system as EQ did/does.
So in my case it is just a simple I use the cheapest recipe, as I would do in Xsyon and I level on it till I no longer can. The difference is that in Xsyon I can keep levelling it whereas most games will put up a levelling restriction. Both ways are equally boring to me.

If you want a fun crafting system it needs to be a tiny mini-game in itself.
Vanguard did a relatively fun one. You collected the resources needed, depending on your skill level you had different enhancement methods, some would give huge boosts to quality some would give lesser boosts to quality, same went for crafting progress it would give you. You had a bar, your hp for the crafting, a progress bar and a quality bar.
You wanted A quality goods and that wasn't always easy to get. Different items liked different enhancement methods more than others.

But it was time consuming. REALLY time consuming. That would be my ideal crafting system. I hate click'n'craft a perfect item crafting systems.
Like logging in this game should be done as FFXIV. Directional swings to control the fall, the quality, amount etc.

Actually Willowhawk got a good explanation for the crafting system. It is based on raising quality, less skill restrictions whereas most other MMO games do a set quality and then you gain better items.

[MrDDT]

And that was just my point really. I never use a skill to create something I can use while levelling. It is waste of materials as you can find way better items - regularly in instances provided the game runs with instance system and not an open dungeon system as EQ did/does.
So in my case it is just a simple I use the cheapest recipe, as I would do in Xsyon and I level on it till I no longer can. The difference is that in Xsyon I can keep levelling it whereas most games will put up a levelling restriction. Both ways are equally boring to me.

I put in bold the problem. Right there is the problem. It breaks econ, and it makes it more of a grind. So instead of striving to get higher level recipes, and doing higher level items. Im sitting here going "Yeah Im going to log in today and do another 3000 needles so I can level up my tool-craft" instead of thinking what recipes you going to get today that are higher level and better, what types of new materials will they require, what can I make that might be useful in these new levels.

Vanguard has a good system. I dont see that happening anytime soon. What I said to do can be done, I explained how it can be done. Its a much better system, and does a lot of good things. And yes it would make crafting a LOT less boring just doing that simple thing of making it so you need to use higher level stuff to level up faster. It gives people better choices to make.
I can make 3000 needles that take handles. OR I can make these hammers which will give me 3x the skill but are harder to make.

At least people will be rewarded for items they DO make that are harder. I make tools all the time for trade and for my clan. I should be rewarded better for doing things that are harder and needed like that.

[VeryWiiTee]

See such a system, where reward is based on difficulty would be appropriate! And it wouldn't be that hard to code no.

Yeah, but Willowhawk set it perfectly.
You shouldn't be thinking in levels and getting better items the higher you are. You should be thinking in quality and the higher level you are (the?!) better quality.

[MrDDT]

See such a system, where reward is based on difficulty would be appropriate! And it wouldn't be that hard to code no.

Yeah, but Willowhawk set it perfectly.
You shouldn't be thinking in levels and getting better items the higher you are. You should be thinking in quality and the higher level you are (the?!) better quality.

I am thinking of it, and the fact its still a bad idea to make needles 10000. Then POOF Im master toolcraft and I can make screwdrivers and saws just as well as I can make wood needles. Even though Ive only ever made wood needles.

I dont need it to be 100% real, my point is just that its not good for econ, fun factor, and skilling to have it so you can train off 1 tool from 5 to 100 skill.