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  1. #11
    Great example Derek.

    clearly communicated to the player by visual and audio cues
    I think this point is essential,but I would also add that simply 'communicating' it isn't enough. It must also be communicated in a fashion that gives a reasonable amount of time to react. Which MnB does, IMO. I am an old man, so admittedly younger players may see this as a minor issue, but my reflexes aren't what they used to be. I'm not saying you should slow it down for us old folks, but it should be somewhere in the middle. I do have a lot of fun in MnB combat and it doesn't seem too fast for me as it at least allows me to compete with a quicker reaction time by playing smarter.

    In MnB sometimes a duel can go on forever (though I've seen duels last less than 6 seconds between highly skilled players too). My point is, should we eliminate the 'possibility' that a match might continue for a long period of time? I just don't want to see a mechanism that blanket dictates that matches 'must' be short.

    Something else I will point out. In MnB there is no parry/dodge skill so to speak. Everyone can parry or dodge, and if they successfully parry or dodge they do not get hit. It's a skill that the player has, not necessarily the character. I think that could lend itself to the reasoning whether or not to utilize a move or not as well. If my parry skill is junk, why would I use it unless all my skills were also junk? If my dodge skill is high I might use it exclusively.. and so on.

  2. #12
    I've tested the power swing with players in my tribe with high hit pts also. I would have to say my power swings get cancelled way too often. I haven't tested the percentage.

    And the reason fighters circle is to try and get a back hit. It is rather annoying and hard to achieve since my opponent is normally circling also. I never use dodge, and seldom parry. Mostly I try to dodge by going in for a hit and quickly backing, sidestepping etc. Parry can be used in my opinion only when the tactics of your opponent call for it, and they depend on the opponent's level of armed combat and the rate of energy depletion.

  3. #13
    Totally my opinion here, so bear that in mind.

    People appear to be fighting FPS style, ie. running around like chickens with thier heads cut off so that the other person can't hit them and looking for an opening to strike. I'm suprised they aren't doing the annoying constant jumping made popular in Quake.

    Super speedy combat is not really possible in an MMO where the server has to keep track of (in some cases literally) a billion other things while also trying to keep two opposing character positions and actions synched up. Things are happening here so fast that there is no way to ever get rid of the desynch; even if its not a true technical desynch where the server is actually skipping updating your position/status, but simply a visual desynch due to client side prediction. The situation might be better once multiple servers/CPUs are load balancing different aspects of the game. Even the M&B video up there looks a bit out of sync. Notice how many times the spear/polearm people swing when they are obviously out of range...on their screen they probaby see the person recording as actually being in range (or they just totally suck and don't have any feel for their weapon choice, LOL)

    1. Movement speed in combat needs to be cut a good bit still. Jittering around all over the place doesn't look like any SCA battle I've ever seen. The M&B video above shows a good speed. I can actually track what is going on and its not just a blur of flesh colored blobs strafing in a circle spamming attack.

    2. Swings and dodge/parry need to be slowed down or have some sort of recovery animation. When you swing a big-ass axe, once you are at the end of the swing arc the axe doesn't snap back into ready position instantly. Maybe some more balancing needs to be done on weapon swing speeds as well?

    3. Weapon ranges need to match their visual representation in game. "Eh, close enough" just isn't going to cut it in the minds of most. I shouldn't be able to hit someone 2 meters away with a dagger on an overhand swing (unless its some kind of special lunge attack), nor should I have to get inside 1m to hit with a spear or long handled axe (again, unless its some sort of special attack where you strike with the butt end of the shaft for a stun effect or similar). The distance you can hit from should be discernable just by looking at your weapon's reach, not after 100s of swings to determine where the magic invisible hit-boxes actually are.

    4. I'm not sure how to handle those of us who got a whole hell of a lot of levels (and thus HP) via maxing out multiple craft schools. If HP is further adjusted via combat skills, then those who mostly craft won't have a chance to defend themselves. Normally that would be logical, but in a game where we pay to be entertained rather than harrassed, it just won't fly. For that reason I do like long combat. It gives those who want to try to run a chance to run instead of the old system where someone who specialized in combat could one shot you with a preorder axe. Those who enjoy fighting can stick around and fight.

    5. Energy consumption needs to be tied to weapon type (or individual weapon stats) and skills and stats. You should be able to flick a dagger around quickly and you would tire slowly, but each hit would do relatively little damage. A big axe, however would be much slower, consume more energy, and do significantly more damage.

    6. Weapons (and armor) need a bit more individualism both as archetypes as well as each individual weapon. Daggers as a group might have a higher chance to crit, while axes have a higher crit mod (they don't crit more, just harder when they do). Individual weapons within the groups would have their own distinquishing characteristics, be it faster swing but less damage or higher crit chance but slow speed, etc. The only caveat to this is the time it would take to balance all this junk.

    7. Please add the joypad code for the horseman lance attack *grin*

    *edit to add*
    What would people think if parry was reactive within a small forward arc? Meaning if a swing came within the effective protective arc, you would parry the attack. I believe right now you have to pretty much time your parry so that it hits their weapon for it to count.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post

    When we test in house we take advantage of what the system has to offer (directionaly swings, block, dodge and swing power) and we feel that combat is more fun and it does not take so long. So what are the main reasons that instead of actually using the system, players are running around in circles like this and using quick swing that deliver little power, thus drawing out combat?
    I never seen anyone stand while getting a beat, there are chances of player missing if we move....so basically we move around to try not to get hit..at same time we try to hit them, thus we fight in circles! That is how pretty much all pvp games go.

  5. #15
    That's what MnB did so well. The weapon reaches are exactly the length of the model.

    So the hit box for weapons are the same size as the weapons model. This shouldn't be too hard to emulate in Xsyon.

    apart from the desync that makes it appear that weapon ranges are longer/shorter than they really are.

  6. #16
    I also have to agree with the observation that one reason you don't see full power swings is because it is too difficult to hold it for more than half a second. Against animals it's nearly impossible to get a full swing in before they hit you and you drop back to a normal stance. Maybe skill with your wielded weapon (or maybe just armed/unarmed skill) should influence your chance to be interrupted on a held swing.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    I really appreciate this type of feedback, so first of all, thank you very much.

    I need to make a few comments.

    Roth has very high hit points. This is one reason for the length of this fight.
    The difference between your agilities is 22 points.
    Leather pants and a shirt is armor. The base armor parts account for about 30% of a total set. There should be a significant difference between leather pants and a shirt and a naked player.
    A fully charged swing does 3.5 x more damage than a completely uncharged swing.

    I agree that as a 'forced fight' this takes too long, however it appears that swing power is hardly used at all.

    When we test in house we take advantage of what the system has to offer (directionaly swings, block, dodge and swing power) and we feel that combat is more fun and it does not take so long. So what are the main reasons that instead of actually using the system, players are running around in circles like this and using quick swing that deliver little power, thus drawing out combat?

    1) The main reason you are not parrying or dodging seems that swing are too fast. How much slower should they be? (2x, or more?)
    2) Parrying can be held and you can switch between a held swing and a held parry. Have you tried this? If so, what is the problem with it that it's not being used?
    3) Held swings (charged attacks) are not always cancelled when you are hit. Please test this. There is a 50% base chase that the held swing will be cancelled. If they are being cancelled too much when you have high skills I will adjust this. A high skilled attacker should not have his held swings cancelled.
    4) Do rear attacks increase damage by too much? Is this why you are constantly circling each other?
    5) Am I missing something else? What other reasons are causing players to fight like this rather than use the system as designed?

    To me this looks like a matter of tweaking variables so that players use the system that we've spent so much time implementing. Once that has been achieved we will work on special attacks and defenses.

    Thanks again.

    PS: This thread will be moved to our Feedback section.

    Roth does have higher HP than new players yes, but I'm looking at what the game should be balanced for and I would guess it would be someone close to his skill level, which is less than mine but much higher than a new player correct?

    Sorry, I was wrong about our stats, but as you are. You need to use the boosted stats and not the stats of base. Unless of course boosted stats have no effect, then I will be wrong. During the fight they were more than 22 points away, also even at 22 points that's a pretty good chunk of AGI diff, and movement speeds are still pretty close.
    I'm not saying this is a major issue, just pointing it out, I believe later you will find that this will be a problem as it will force everyone to have high AGI. That are in any types of combat, because movement is a MAJOR factor in combat, both for attacker and prey.

    I just did MORE testing, and armor has ZERO effect in game. Back shots, front shots, fully charged attacks, fast attacks. Armor plays NO FACTOR, clearly something is broke there.

    While testing the armor, I also tested the damage. Fast attack with preorder is 181% damage while fully charged vs a fast attack (that's 81% more damage).
    Charged attack on back vs fast attack on the back was 184% (84% more damage)



    I tested this 50+ times with the same damage, no matter what armor or where I was hitting the target other than back or front.

    First number is fast back attack.
    Second number is full charged back attack.
    Third number is fast attack on front.
    Fourth number is full charged attack on front.

    I would say about 2.5x slower for attack speeds.
    With charged attacks doing 5x or more damage at around 2.5 seconds to fully charge.
    Also with fast attacks they give around 40% power (Right now) of the attack while a charge takes about 2 seconds to charge yet only gives 100% power, if you were to charge for 1 seconds you would get 50%, while a fast attack needs 0 charge for the same amount of charge bonus.
    I think the charge timer should be a bonus to damage and not a multiplier.

    So say if I do a fast attack, with str, base damage, skill damage, minus out armor / dodge/parry %, I do 10 damage.
    If i do a 1 second charge, I would do 22 damage, if I do a 2.5 second charge I would do 50 damage.

    I like that held attacks are canceled when hit, however, I think it should be a special hit and not just any hit. Meaning you choose to toss an attack that cancels someone else's attack not just random change per attack, these should be very fast attacks, that do little damage.

    Rear attacks are perfect, and that is why people circle each other. I dont see this changing unless you remove back attacks. It also does 2 things while circling the target, it forces them to miss you (if you are not in front of them, they cant attack you) and also opens up for extra damage for back attacks.

    The major reasons are that there is no loss to NOT parry, meaning if someone is parrying me. Why would I stop attacking? Why would I change up the non stop attacks being shot at this guy? I dont lose stamina, I'm not hurting myself. I might get lucky and the guy mess up a parry or dodge, or slip it by and get a back attack.
    Add in stamina per attack, so people are not spam clicking. Charged attacks should be the best choice for DPS, but not really for tactics. Meaning, good players wont want to charge because they will be fighting people that can parry and dodge well, and also throw in "disrupting" attacks that cancel out charges.

    However, using a charged up attack at the right time will yield great damage, so back attacks with full charge would be very very painful, few hits of those and down you go, so you wont want to open your back up.
    Faster weapons also will charge up faster, so you will have to balance this out with testing of combat.

    I agree we are in the tweaking area now, and not just "Broken" combat, so that's a good thing.

    Desync is still an issue. Him getting back shots while I'm getting back shots at the same time means there is a desync, and needs to be looked at. Slowing down the attack will help this also.



    After more testing, I found that skill has no effect on damage (at least with preorder weapons, which is a weapon I can test and know they are not worn and are perfectly the same damage)

    STR does.

  8. #18
    If swings had a back swing animation then it would make the timing much better and give players a chance to detect where the next swing is coming from. Try slowing the swing speed down to maybe 110% of what it is now but not much slower or it will feel sluggish. Then add a transition animation to bring the weapon back to ready position which takes the same time that the attack swing takes or maybe slightly slower. This will give the illusion of momentum while also stopping weapon spam. It will have the added benefit of giving the player time to detect where the next swing is coming from so that a well timed parry can be placed.

    Also please make the parry button bindable to any button. I really want to bind it to right mouse.

    edit: actually with the back swing animation added this will effectively double the time it takes for the attack to complete so maybe the swing speed is fine without adjustment.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Drevar View Post
    Totally my opinion here, so bear that in mind.

    People appear to be fighting FPS style, ie. running around like chickens with thier heads cut off so that the other person can't hit them and looking for an opening to strike. I'm suprised they aren't doing the annoying constant jumping made popular in Quake.

    Super speedy combat is not really possible in an MMO where the server has to keep track of (in some cases literally) a billion other things while also trying to keep two opposing character positions and actions synched up. Things are happening here so fast that there is no way to ever get rid of the desynch; even if its not a true technical desynch where the server is actually skipping updating your position/status, but simply a visual desynch due to client side prediction. The situation might be better once multiple servers/CPUs are load balancing different aspects of the game. Even the M&B video up there looks a bit out of sync. Notice how many times the spear/polearm people swing when they are obviously out of range...on their screen they probaby see the person recording as actually being in range (or they just totally suck and don't have any feel for their weapon choice, LOL)

    1. Movement speed in combat needs to be cut a good bit still. Jittering around all over the place doesn't look like any SCA battle I've ever seen. The M&B video above shows a good speed. I can actually track what is going on and its not just a blur of flesh colored blobs strafing in a circle spamming attack.

    2. Swings and dodge/parry need to be slowed down or have some sort of recovery animation. When you swing a big-ass axe, once you are at the end of the swing arc the axe doesn't snap back into ready position instantly. Maybe some more balancing needs to be done on weapon swing speeds as well?

    3. Weapon ranges need to match their visual representation in game. "Eh, close enough" just isn't going to cut it in the minds of most. I shouldn't be able to hit someone 2 meters away with a dagger on an overhand swing (unless its some kind of special lunge attack), nor should I have to get inside 1m to hit with a spear or long handled axe (again, unless its some sort of special attack where you strike with the butt end of the shaft for a stun effect or similar). The distance you can hit from should be discernable just by looking at your weapon's reach, not after 100s of swings to determine where the magic invisible hit-boxes actually are.

    4. I'm not sure how to handle those of us who got a whole hell of a lot of levels (and thus HP) via maxing out multiple craft schools. If HP is further adjusted via combat skills, then those who mostly craft won't have a chance to defend themselves. Normally that would be logical, but in a game where we pay to be entertained rather than harrassed, it just won't fly. For that reason I do like long combat. It gives those who want to try to run a chance to run instead of the old system where someone who specialized in combat could one shot you with a preorder axe. Those who enjoy fighting can stick around and fight.

    5. Energy consumption needs to be tied to weapon type (or individual weapon stats) and skills and stats. You should be able to flick a dagger around quickly and you would tire slowly, but each hit would do relatively little damage. A big axe, however would be much slower, consume more energy, and do significantly more damage.

    6. Weapons (and armor) need a bit more individualism both as archetypes as well as each individual weapon. Daggers as a group might have a higher chance to crit, while axes have a higher crit mod (they don't crit more, just harder when they do). Individual weapons within the groups would have their own distinquishing characteristics, be it faster swing but less damage or higher crit chance but slow speed, etc. The only caveat to this is the time it would take to balance all this junk.

    7. Please add the joypad code for the horseman lance attack *grin*

    *edit to add*
    What would people think if parry was reactive within a small forward arc? Meaning if a swing came within the effective protective arc, you would parry the attack. I believe right now you have to pretty much time your parry so that it hits their weapon for it to count.


    Drevar, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but right now the basics are not even being worked out right. Basics being, skill isnt even effected in combat, armor isnt being used. Basic stuff like that.

    Once those things are in, I believe more balancing can be done, but right now who the flip knows what is going on.

    Weapon ranges are totally jacked, but so are the hit boxes and desync. Once the hitboxes and desync is working right then you can start balancing the weapon types, you cant do it all at once or it will just be a huge mess of like we have now, its clear to me that the testing team is barely even testing anything before giving it the "OK".

    I'm all for longer combat, but it shouldnt be longer because you are getting hit for 2 damage and you have 1000 HP right? It should be longer combat, because you are good at parry, dodge, jooking people, and using good armor, and you are leveled up.
    Right now without knowing who has what HP, with what regen, I cant balance crap. I can clearly see its WAY out of wack, but that's about it.

    This combat is really boring and needs a LOT of work, but really they should just start with all weapons with the same attack speed, with the same damage, and the same range until other things are working right.
    Once dodge parry are working, as are hitboxes and how long a fight lasts on the basic levels. Then start worrying about balancing armor, stats on weapons, and things like that. That's just me. So many factors are unknown and really just jacked up, how can anyone truly test it? Even the testing team doesnt have the tool to test this crap.

    I do like where combat is going, I have hope for it, its not going to be done overnight. But mashing it all together and trying to get them all to work at the same time isnt the answer, you need to start simple and add to it.

    Biggest keys to me is, attack speed, combat speed (movement), parry, dodge and basic length of a all out beat down.

    Length of 2 people just full on DPSing each other shouldnt last long at all when naked. Seconds. Like 10 to 20 seconds. Not 3+ mins.
    Once you add in good play, with jooking, parry, dodge, armor, etc, that 10 to 20 seconds could go on for 10+ mins for all I care, when there is an even match up.
    Naked players getting beat with Master QL, weapons high STR (which is where ALL the combat damage is coming from Weapon + STR), high skills (currently not being figured) normal HP taking 3+ mins. Way to long way way to long, because when good people play they will never kill each other and both give up and just walk away.

  10. #20
    Xsyon Citizen VeryWiiTee's Avatar
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    I'd honestly hate having a normal fight with just dps'ing for 10-20 seconds. That's not a fight. That's what a gank is. You sweep in, deliver a few blows and see the other character dead within seconds.

    I've not had any 3min fights, mostly because we power up our swings when fighting. We still circle each other, but we don't just attack because we're close enough as you guys honestly seem to be doing.
    We have fights lasting 40s - 2min depending on skills and armor/weapons. We can hardly get it to last longer than that. 40sec - 2min should imo be around what a standard fight lasts.

    We don't use parry/dodge. The swings can be made too quickly for it to actually matter. You have to know the opponent is going to swing a few seconds before it happens before you can make a successful parry/dodge and I don't want to rely on my fortune-telling capabilities (I'm sure they suck ass)

    Other than that I'd have to agree..

    Weapon skills doesn't seem to affect anything.
    Armor doesn't seem to affect anything.
    Stats on gear doesn't seem to affect anything.
    Hitboxes are screwed. Too large or too small. Depending on the model.
    Swing times are still too fast.
    Quality seems to have no effect whatsoever on armor and damage.

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