Combat Feedback: Newest Combat Video

[Derek]

I hope the system isn't designed to just stand toe-to-toe while trading blows and using dodge/parry. What makes a melee combat system fun and visceral is the ability to gain advantage through movement in and out of weapon range while feinting strikes, timing blocks, and counter striking. In Xsyon, players instinctively circle their opponent because it is currently the only mechanism that allows them to gain an advantage on their opponent.

Sorry to keep bringing up Mount & Blade but it is the best example I know that exemplifies fun melee combat. Here is a video showing how a player with a very short ranged blunt weapon uses movement and parry to get in close and land a clean strike on players with longer ranged melee weapons. If I had to pick one main factor stopping people from using parry would be that it doesn't cause a weapon kick back animation effectively causing a delay for when they can swing again. This video shows how a successful parry is clearly effective in combat and also clearly communicated to the player by visual and audio cues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgaNL...eature=related

[Trenchfoot]

Great example Derek.

clearly communicated to the player by visual and audio cues

I think this point is essential,but I would also add that simply 'communicating' it isn't enough. It must also be communicated in a fashion that gives a reasonable amount of time to react. Which MnB does, IMO. I am an old man, so admittedly younger players may see this as a minor issue, but my reflexes aren't what they used to be. I'm not saying you should slow it down for us old folks, but it should be somewhere in the middle. I do have a lot of fun in MnB combat and it doesn't seem too fast for me as it at least allows me to compete with a quicker reaction time by playing smarter.

In MnB sometimes a duel can go on forever (though I've seen duels last less than 6 seconds between highly skilled players too). My point is, should we eliminate the 'possibility' that a match might continue for a long period of time? I just don't want to see a mechanism that blanket dictates that matches 'must' be short.

Something else I will point out. In MnB there is no parry/dodge skill so to speak. Everyone can parry or dodge, and if they successfully parry or dodge they do not get hit. It's a skill that the player has, not necessarily the character. I think that could lend itself to the reasoning whether or not to utilize a move or not as well. If my parry skill is junk, why would I use it unless all my skills were also junk? If my dodge skill is high I might use it exclusively.. and so on.

[Drevar]

Totally my opinion here, so bear that in mind.

People appear to be fighting FPS style, ie. running around like chickens with thier heads cut off so that the other person can't hit them and looking for an opening to strike. I'm suprised they aren't doing the annoying constant jumping made popular in Quake.

Super speedy combat is not really possible in an MMO where the server has to keep track of (in some cases literally) a billion other things while also trying to keep two opposing character positions and actions synched up. Things are happening here so fast that there is no way to ever get rid of the desynch; even if its not a true technical desynch where the server is actually skipping updating your position/status, but simply a visual desynch due to client side prediction. The situation might be better once multiple servers/CPUs are load balancing different aspects of the game. Even the M&B video up there looks a bit out of sync. Notice how many times the spear/polearm people swing when they are obviously out of range...on their screen they probaby see the person recording as actually being in range (or they just totally suck and don't have any feel for their weapon choice, LOL)

1. Movement speed in combat needs to be cut a good bit still. Jittering around all over the place doesn't look like any SCA battle I've ever seen. The M&B video above shows a good speed. I can actually track what is going on and its not just a blur of flesh colored blobs strafing in a circle spamming attack.

2. Swings and dodge/parry need to be slowed down or have some sort of recovery animation. When you swing a big-ass axe, once you are at the end of the swing arc the axe doesn't snap back into ready position instantly. Maybe some more balancing needs to be done on weapon swing speeds as well?

3. Weapon ranges need to match their visual representation in game. "Eh, close enough" just isn't going to cut it in the minds of most. I shouldn't be able to hit someone 2 meters away with a dagger on an overhand swing (unless its some kind of special lunge attack), nor should I have to get inside 1m to hit with a spear or long handled axe (again, unless its some sort of special attack where you strike with the butt end of the shaft for a stun effect or similar). The distance you can hit from should be discernable just by looking at your weapon's reach, not after 100s of swings to determine where the magic invisible hit-boxes actually are.

4. I'm not sure how to handle those of us who got a whole hell of a lot of levels (and thus HP) via maxing out multiple craft schools. If HP is further adjusted via combat skills, then those who mostly craft won't have a chance to defend themselves. Normally that would be logical, but in a game where we pay to be entertained rather than harrassed, it just won't fly. For that reason I do like long combat. It gives those who want to try to run a chance to run instead of the old system where someone who specialized in combat could one shot you with a preorder axe. Those who enjoy fighting can stick around and fight.

5. Energy consumption needs to be tied to weapon type (or individual weapon stats) and skills and stats. You should be able to flick a dagger around quickly and you would tire slowly, but each hit would do relatively little damage. A big axe, however would be much slower, consume more energy, and do significantly more damage.

6. Weapons (and armor) need a bit more individualism both as archetypes as well as each individual weapon. Daggers as a group might have a higher chance to crit, while axes have a higher crit mod (they don't crit more, just harder when they do). Individual weapons within the groups would have their own distinquishing characteristics, be it faster swing but less damage or higher crit chance but slow speed, etc. The only caveat to this is the time it would take to balance all this junk.

7. Please add the joypad code for the horseman lance attack *grin*

*edit to add*
What would people think if parry was reactive within a small forward arc? Meaning if a swing came within the effective protective arc, you would parry the attack. I believe right now you have to pretty much time your parry so that it hits their weapon for it to count.

[MrDDT]

Totally my opinion here, so bear that in mind.

People appear to be fighting FPS style, ie. running around like chickens with thier heads cut off so that the other person can't hit them and looking for an opening to strike. I'm suprised they aren't doing the annoying constant jumping made popular in Quake.

Super speedy combat is not really possible in an MMO where the server has to keep track of (in some cases literally) a billion other things while also trying to keep two opposing character positions and actions synched up. Things are happening here so fast that there is no way to ever get rid of the desynch; even if its not a true technical desynch where the server is actually skipping updating your position/status, but simply a visual desynch due to client side prediction. The situation might be better once multiple servers/CPUs are load balancing different aspects of the game. Even the M&B video up there looks a bit out of sync. Notice how many times the spear/polearm people swing when they are obviously out of range...on their screen they probaby see the person recording as actually being in range (or they just totally suck and don't have any feel for their weapon choice, LOL)

1. Movement speed in combat needs to be cut a good bit still. Jittering around all over the place doesn't look like any SCA battle I've ever seen. The M&B video above shows a good speed. I can actually track what is going on and its not just a blur of flesh colored blobs strafing in a circle spamming attack.

2. Swings and dodge/parry need to be slowed down or have some sort of recovery animation. When you swing a big-ass axe, once you are at the end of the swing arc the axe doesn't snap back into ready position instantly. Maybe some more balancing needs to be done on weapon swing speeds as well?

3. Weapon ranges need to match their visual representation in game. "Eh, close enough" just isn't going to cut it in the minds of most. I shouldn't be able to hit someone 2 meters away with a dagger on an overhand swing (unless its some kind of special lunge attack), nor should I have to get inside 1m to hit with a spear or long handled axe (again, unless its some sort of special attack where you strike with the butt end of the shaft for a stun effect or similar). The distance you can hit from should be discernable just by looking at your weapon's reach, not after 100s of swings to determine where the magic invisible hit-boxes actually are.

4. I'm not sure how to handle those of us who got a whole hell of a lot of levels (and thus HP) via maxing out multiple craft schools. If HP is further adjusted via combat skills, then those who mostly craft won't have a chance to defend themselves. Normally that would be logical, but in a game where we pay to be entertained rather than harrassed, it just won't fly. For that reason I do like long combat. It gives those who want to try to run a chance to run instead of the old system where someone who specialized in combat could one shot you with a preorder axe. Those who enjoy fighting can stick around and fight.

5. Energy consumption needs to be tied to weapon type (or individual weapon stats) and skills and stats. You should be able to flick a dagger around quickly and you would tire slowly, but each hit would do relatively little damage. A big axe, however would be much slower, consume more energy, and do significantly more damage.

6. Weapons (and armor) need a bit more individualism both as archetypes as well as each individual weapon. Daggers as a group might have a higher chance to crit, while axes have a higher crit mod (they don't crit more, just harder when they do). Individual weapons within the groups would have their own distinquishing characteristics, be it faster swing but less damage or higher crit chance but slow speed, etc. The only caveat to this is the time it would take to balance all this junk.

7. Please add the joypad code for the horseman lance attack *grin*

*edit to add*
What would people think if parry was reactive within a small forward arc? Meaning if a swing came within the effective protective arc, you would parry the attack. I believe right now you have to pretty much time your parry so that it hits their weapon for it to count.

Drevar, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but right now the basics are not even being worked out right. Basics being, skill isnt even effected in combat, armor isnt being used. Basic stuff like that.

Once those things are in, I believe more balancing can be done, but right now who the flip knows what is going on.

Weapon ranges are totally jacked, but so are the hit boxes and desync. Once the hitboxes and desync is working right then you can start balancing the weapon types, you cant do it all at once or it will just be a huge mess of like we have now, its clear to me that the testing team is barely even testing anything before giving it the "OK".

I'm all for longer combat, but it shouldnt be longer because you are getting hit for 2 damage and you have 1000 HP right? It should be longer combat, because you are good at parry, dodge, jooking people, and using good armor, and you are leveled up.
Right now without knowing who has what HP, with what regen, I cant balance crap. I can clearly see its WAY out of wack, but that's about it.

This combat is really boring and needs a LOT of work, but really they should just start with all weapons with the same attack speed, with the same damage, and the same range until other things are working right.
Once dodge parry are working, as are hitboxes and how long a fight lasts on the basic levels. Then start worrying about balancing armor, stats on weapons, and things like that. That's just me. So many factors are unknown and really just jacked up, how can anyone truly test it? Even the testing team doesnt have the tool to test this crap.

I do like where combat is going, I have hope for it, its not going to be done overnight. But mashing it all together and trying to get them all to work at the same time isnt the answer, you need to start simple and add to it.

Biggest keys to me is, attack speed, combat speed (movement), parry, dodge and basic length of a all out beat down.

Length of 2 people just full on DPSing each other shouldnt last long at all when naked. Seconds. Like 10 to 20 seconds. Not 3+ mins.
Once you add in good play, with jooking, parry, dodge, armor, etc, that 10 to 20 seconds could go on for 10+ mins for all I care, when there is an even match up.
Naked players getting beat with Master QL, weapons high STR (which is where ALL the combat damage is coming from Weapon + STR), high skills (currently not being figured) normal HP taking 3+ mins. Way to long way way to long, because when good people play they will never kill each other and both give up and just walk away.

[VeryWiiTee]

I'd honestly hate having a normal fight with just dps'ing for 10-20 seconds. That's not a fight. That's what a gank is. You sweep in, deliver a few blows and see the other character dead within seconds.

I've not had any 3min fights, mostly because we power up our swings when fighting. We still circle each other, but we don't just attack because we're close enough as you guys honestly seem to be doing.
We have fights lasting 40s - 2min depending on skills and armor/weapons. We can hardly get it to last longer than that. 40sec - 2min should imo be around what a standard fight lasts.

We don't use parry/dodge. The swings can be made too quickly for it to actually matter. You have to know the opponent is going to swing a few seconds before it happens before you can make a successful parry/dodge and I don't want to rely on my fortune-telling capabilities (I'm sure they suck ass)

Other than that I'd have to agree..

Weapon skills doesn't seem to affect anything.
Armor doesn't seem to affect anything.
Stats on gear doesn't seem to affect anything.
Hitboxes are screwed. Too large or too small. Depending on the model.
Swing times are still too fast.
Quality seems to have no effect whatsoever on armor and damage.

[krimara]

Unless they changed it, weapon skill decreases the amount of damage resistance armor provides for your target, so I'm guessing here that your combat skills are high, and unless they are wearing heavy armor (not just a piece or two all 15) there isn't going to be a difference.

Better Quality last I seen was a minimal increase in damage (some weapons going from 2.3 to 2.5)

Combat in general is still to fast, swing speed and movement speed.

[Hodo]

I would love to see some changes to the combat system.

Not completely to the M&B:Warband combat, as that would be not great for PvP in a MMORPG. But something close to the original Roma Victor with modifications.

I will come right out and say I hate the "hit point bubble".

I suggest having attributes become your hit points. If you get hit in the arms, you take damage to your strength, legs agility, chest stamina, head intelligence. I am sure he( the developer) remembers the exact combat damage system in RV.

With the current movement system and a few tweaks to the armour and weapons the combat could be GREAT.

Then he can get started on adding agriculture, and ranged weapons, bows, cross bows, throwing spears, hell spears in general.

[MrDDT]

I'd honestly hate having a normal fight with just dps'ing for 10-20 seconds. That's not a fight. That's what a gank is. You sweep in, deliver a few blows and see the other character dead within seconds.

I've not had any 3min fights, mostly because we power up our swings when fighting. We still circle each other, but we don't just attack because we're close enough as you guys honestly seem to be doing.
We have fights lasting 40s - 2min depending on skills and armor/weapons. We can hardly get it to last longer than that. 40sec - 2min should imo be around what a standard fight lasts.

We don't use parry/dodge. The swings can be made too quickly for it to actually matter. You have to know the opponent is going to swing a few seconds before it happens before you can make a successful parry/dodge and I don't want to rely on my fortune-telling capabilities (I'm sure they suck ass)

Other than that I'd have to agree..

Weapon skills doesn't seem to affect anything.
Armor doesn't seem to affect anything.
Stats on gear doesn't seem to affect anything.
Hitboxes are screwed. Too large or too small. Depending on the model.
Swing times are still too fast.
Quality seems to have no effect whatsoever on armor and damage.

I'm still more than willing to test combat with you, please contact me in game. I've asked this a few times.

I cant get combat to NOT last 2 or 3 mins unless its ONLY backshots (charged attacks are worse for DPS just FYI).

[NorCalGooey]

I'd honestly hate having a normal fight with just dps'ing for 10-20 seconds. That's not a fight. That's what a gank is. You sweep in, deliver a few blows and see the other character dead within seconds.

I've not had any 3min fights, mostly because we power up our swings when fighting. We still circle each other, but we don't just attack because we're close enough as you guys honestly seem to be doing.
We have fights lasting 40s - 2min depending on skills and armor/weapons. We can hardly get it to last longer than that. 40sec - 2min should imo be around what a standard fight lasts.

We don't use parry/dodge. The swings can be made too quickly for it to actually matter. You have to know the opponent is going to swing a few seconds before it happens before you can make a successful parry/dodge and I don't want to rely on my fortune-telling capabilities (I'm sure they suck ass)

Other than that I'd have to agree..

Weapon skills doesn't seem to affect anything.
Armor doesn't seem to affect anything.
Stats on gear doesn't seem to affect anything.
Hitboxes are screwed. Too large or too small. Depending on the model.
Swing times are still too fast.
Quality seems to have no effect whatsoever on armor and damage.

You think 10-20 seconds of pure dps is a gank? Wow.

You did describe a gank accurately, that just wasn't it. You sweep in deliver a few blows and see the other dead in seconds.

A few blows and dead before the person has to do anything is a gank. Not 20 blows with full charge.

[Xsyon]

Thanks for all the detailed feedback.

The current live build does have a major problem. We were running some tests in the code when we had to rush out the last quick patch and the test code was not removed. This test has the attacker's skill fixed at 50 and the defender's armor set to full bone armor (normal quality, full duration).

We can't patch the live server until we're done our current changes to the database.

So what we're going to do is:

1) Remove the test code that was affecting the skill and armor functions (done).
2) Revise combat variables today and tomorrow based on all the feedback given here (in progress).
3) Ask that all players hold more feedback until we're ready to test combat again on the test server.
4) Hold a combat test session on the test server when these changes are ready.
5) Patch the changes to the live as soon as they are satisfactory and our database code is ready.

Thanks again and please hold off on more combat comments until the next round of revisions are ready.