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  1. #1

    Feedback Request: Test Server Combat 9/29/11

    The current build on the test server has many revision and tweaks to improve combat. Please provide feedback on the current state of PvP combat on the test server.

    Here's what we've done:
    - Player collision adjusted.
    - Weapon range adjusted.
    - Bug with set armor and skill values fixed.
    - Bug with swing power fixed. (Quick swings were gaining 50% swing power).
    - Attack swing speed slowed.
    - Side to side movement slowed.
    - Damage increased.
    - Effect of swing power adjusted.
    - Backstab damage increase slightly reduced.
    - Character body angle adjusted to better match the camera angle.
    - Increased the chance of being able to hold a swing while hit. This is based on your attack skills.
    - Increased the chance of being able to hold a parry while hit. This is based on your parry skill.
    - Successful parrys should always remain held.
    - Swings drain energy, based on how charged your attack is.
    - Bug with stats not gaining in combat fixed.
    - Removed the ability to parry without a weapon.
    - Updated animations to better show what weapon is used for the parry.
    - Blocked auto move holdingboth mouse buttons in combat.
    - Weapon quality increases damageusing a quadratic instead of a linear function.
    - Revised combat damage text to show full calcuations.
    - Dodge has been removed, for now. It will be implemented in a different manner.

    - Added mouse combat mode.

    This can be turned on through the Keybind panel. In mouse combat mouse you can use the right mouse button to attack and the left mouse button to parry. By default you will attack with your right and parry with your left hand. To switch hands, press the block (Left Alt) key.

    Attackers skill and defenders armor is combined to calculate a 'to hit' factor that reduces damage. The calculations are similar to the D&D 'to hit AC 0' system.

    Mouse combat mode does not save when you exit the game. This will be set up soon.

    Next up:
    - Animations for successful parrys.
    - Specific body part targeting for critical hits.
    - Debuffs based on critical hits such as slowed movement.
    - Greater effect on energy gain based on hunger and thirst.
    - Revised damage reduction for successful parrys.
    - Revised creature ranges, attack power and defense.

    All of the values are now easy to adjust. I appreciate feedback on all aspects of the current system especially the newly added mouse mode combat.


  2. #2
    DDT get on and test (if you can)

  3. #3
    No mobs or people to test on yet. First impressions are:

    1-Combat mouse mode.
    2-Improved parry animation.

    1-Animations are now too slow. I was hoping that the previous swing speed would stay (or maybe 90% of that speed) and a "pull back" animation would be added to transition the weapon back to ready effectively creating a cooldown between swings and creating the illusion of momentum. It just feels too sluggish now as DDT said in post below.
    2-Stamina drain seems too severe.
    3-See Inhabit's post (8 posts down) about the bug with swing charge. In the current implementation, you can't hold a swing, then press parry while still holding the swing, and then release parry to go back to swing. The same is true about the opposite: holding parry, then holding swing to charge swing without releasing parry, then release swing to go back to parry. This would be a great addition to the current system. It allows faking players to fake swings and jump into parry then counter.

    I'm sure there will be more when I can test on other players and mobs.

  4. #4
    Im testing now.
    So far I like it. Does need balancing.

    Added after 31 minutes:

    Few things I would balance.

    Show how much damage is lost on the test server to we can better balance parry attacks.

    Combat is still very long.

    Attackers are running out of stamina before they are running out of life, and no way to gain back stamina. Major problem as there is no way to gain back stamina vs life, so who ever just defends up will win. So people will be at a stale mate or wait for friends to attack.
    To fix this, holding parry, should use more stamina. To prevent people just defending non stop until the target is out of stamina. It should be used as a choice in combat, not as a starting base to run people dry in combat to win. Not really sure how to fix this problem, but I can see its clearly a problem. You will remove HP totally out of combat if its like it is.

    Parry isnt using which side its parried on, so if attacker attacks me on the left, I can parry the right side, and it will parry the same amount as if I parried on the right side. (I want to keep it like this its way more fun like this).

    Backwards movement speed is too fast.
    Backwards while using AorD is way to fast.

    Added after 5 minutes:

    Again after most testing, attacking fast vs holding swings eats a LOT of stamina.
    After killing 2 coyotes, Im at 0 stamina from doing fast attacks only.
    Where this is a major problem is anytime you have to attack more than 1 person at a time, you will run out of stamina and nothing you can do about it.

    Overall still a lot more fun to play, just needs some balancing.

  5. #5
    URG this sounds like good stuff.. i wish i could test.!! Can you give a bit of a more detailed overview ddt? You mentioned stamina wars. What happens when you run out of stamina? Cant do anything?

    BTW when dual wielding would it be better just to set it up so both weapons block at once / attack at once, if someone can give some insight why this would or wouldnt work. Its a bit of a hassle to think about your different hands all the time.

  6. #6
    Attack range is too short in my opinion also.
    Knives you have to be kissing (like really touching bodies) to hit.
    Axes, clubs and picks/shovels are a bit short also.

    I would like to see each type of weapon have better range of attack based on how they would use that weapon. Knives would be the shortest, while I think clubs the longest, then axe, then picks. Picks also seem to do the most damage which would help counter balance with a slightly shorter range.

    I think adding about 50% ranges to all of them should be a good starting spot. (I think thats where it was last patch).

    Also ARC attacks, I'm watching attacks miss targets because of weapons are attacking point of attacks instead of arcs.

    Added after 17 minutes:

    Armor I think doesnt add enough defense.

    Weapons matter a lot more than armor. Going from 1 item (2 if you use 2 weapons which is another problem about being forced to dual wield). Overall damage is effected by +/-50% by 1 item (weapon), vs armor is effecting overall damage +/-30% yet its 15 items.
    Plus armor slows you down a LOT. So in combat its even worse.

    Not sure this is intended or not, but I see unarmed more of a fun sport type of skill instead of a real skill that you are going to be out there killing people and things with. If that's the intend, I wont comment on it. If you want it to be useful then many things need to change about it.

    I talked about this a little, but combat still lasts a long time. I fought GuideMihr (I would guess around 200+ HP) and the fight was over 3mins again.
    I fought Roths (about 150HP) and the fight lasted about 2.5mins
    Roth and GuideMihr both have higher HP than a normal players. But you can see these are long fights IMO. Also it came down to stamina as the problem not HP.

    Added after 1 19 minutes:

    Jumping should take a lot more stamina. People jumping around in combat, and losing less stamina than people running after them, its also very hard to hit people jumping due to desync/ping.

    Added after 35 minutes:

    Parry, needs to use up stamina while using and holding.
    Right now if someone is parrying, you cant do anything about it but walk away. If you attack them you lose stamina and they lose nothing (maybe a little life if they are low), but they can do this all day long.

    Also attacks (non parried attacks) are taking too much stamina. Like cut that down by 60% IMO. Every fight (1 v 1) is coming down to stamina issues, even if no one is using parry.

  7. #7
    Thanks so far. I need to digest all of this.

    Are there any comments so far on the 'mouse mode' combat? Is there a preference for this or is it good to simply have this choice?

    One comment about the effect of armor. What you see is a combination of your attack skill and the defender's armor. Basically attack skill overcomes armor right now, rather than directly increase damage. At 0 attack skill, a defender could absorb close to 100% damage with a set of full armor. However, if armor doesn't feel effective enough, it is what it is and can be adjusted.

  8. #8

    getting better :)

    1st I must say combat log is much better not fond of new combat mouse setup I like the other way but would like to be able to change parry key. If the one hand is parry all the time we may as well have a shield instead of another weapon
    The new way is ok but make'n one hand parry only don't work for me, also as DDT said stam drain needs adjusting. maybe add a retaliation bonus to successful parry and make held parry drain stam a bit, this way there's a reason to both use parry yet not hold it.

    On a personal note I would like to see a combat stance that doesn't look like I'm carrying an anvil between my legs lol like bend at knees more and make the upper body more vertical for shoulders at least

    I think its just that the cam is tied to toon in a way that makes it look weird in combat ta me, hard ta explain why

    perhaps a free cam option for combat, this could be so ya can mouse around toon but make it so pitch up and down will make toon hit upper lower and mid still.

  9. #9
    I think overall trying to get combat slower to be more skillful has made it to slow and not flashy enough.

    I would like to see larger arc attacks, faster attacks but also faster responses that matter.

    I hate to say it, but to me its about the same as we have now overall with the speed of held attacks being to slow, and the attack swings being to slow. It feels like slow mo everything.

    I know I was a fan to slow it down, but now its like to slow over all. The attack weapon speeds are like 1/2 the speed, and now holding attacks is 2x. So all in all combat looks about 4x slower, and movement speeds are slow (which I like just how they are other than noted above), so combat seems like you are fighting in a bunch of honey.

    I would like to see more flashy attacks, like you swing your axe and it reacts just you get no damage from it. If you want to do a power attack, you hold the attack for a second and it does it. Or maybe hit a key, and it does a cool play of the attack. Holding the mouse down for 2 seconds like it is now, just feels clunky to me.

    I like the combat overall better now than before, but still doesnt have that feel of a good combat system.

    I play mount and blade and the attacks are about the same but damage is much more deadly. 1 or 2 hits can kill you.

    Not saying that 1 or 2 hits should kill people. Just saying mount and blade combat is faster and flashy. But you also respawn fast there and back in the fight fast. Not something I like about Xsyon.

    Added after 13 minutes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    Thanks so far. I need to digest all of this.

    Are there any comments so far on the 'mouse mode' combat? Is there a preference for this or is it good to simply have this choice?

    One comment about the effect of armor. What you see is a combination of your attack skill and the defender's armor. Basically attack skill overcomes armor right now, rather than directly increase damage. At 0 attack skill, a defender could absorb close to 100% damage with a set of full armor. However, if armor doesn't feel effective enough, it is what it is and can be adjusted.

    First you cant have 0 skill, you start with 5 =P
    But ya I didnt see armor taking near 100% of the damage. Highest I saw was 60% vs lowest I saw was 30% (Both using skill).
    My point is you talking about skill and armor. Look at only the effect of armor. Skill is another factor in there, meaning if I have high skill (100) and you have 0 armor, the most I will do is 100% of my damage. If you have very high armor the most I will do at 100 skill is 50% damage. Now if I have low skill (5) and you have no armor I will do about 70% of my damage, If I have low skill (5) and you have very good armor I will only do about 20% damage.

    Weapon is effecting you by 50%, armor is only giving you a choice of really 80% damage vs low skilled and 50% of high skilled. Meaning the rest is effected by armor. But armor takes up 15 slots, and has other factors like weight.
    So really in fighting someone you have the choice of wearing armor and getting 50% less damage than not wearing good armor (When fighting someone good skills).

    I also believe that armor is more effective vs some types of weapons.

    I think a lot has changed so its hard to say, right now wearing armor is bad because its more of a stamina fight than anything else. Sooooo being that armor weighs a lot, its a lot of that problem with stamina.

    I like the new mouse combat, as long as parry stays like it is where it doesnt matter if you parry with the left and or the right hand.

    Another problem is forcing people to use 2 weapons because of parry, there is no choice in single hand weapon parry option.

    I think making mouse combat mode like you have, it should check to see if you have a weapon in your "parry" hand, and if you dont, it parries with your main weapon.

    Also this is a great start to add shields in, it would look really nice with shields up here, and I can see shields working where you dont have to "block" the direction of the attack as much with a shield.

    Good work over all Xsyon, like it, just doesnt feel fully right.

    Added after 8 minutes:

    Another problem Im having is seeing peoples attack to parry them, they are very small motions and if they get close I cant see them at all due to my body fully covers theirs (most people are 1/2 my size).

    Also I dont see a bonus to being big, doesnt look like height has any effect or not enough effect on reach.

  10. #10
    Going to test it now, hopefully I'm able to charge up attacks and do battles that way instead of just clicking constantly.

    Charging is slow/swinging is very slow (unless armed/unarmed skill and proficiency contributes which in that case my armed is only 31 and clubs is 30); even though swing speed is slow I realize that the reason its slow is because the hits are much harder with over 17.00 (against 57% armor....compared to the old system of 12.00 w/o armor stat) every time, charged fully (makes for some short battles).

    I no longer need to wield two weapons or use punching (Kimbo Slice? lol)

    Health/Energy is gaining much faster if not hungry or thirsty (didn't test compared to starving and thirsty though).

    I really like how you can view what gives bonuses and what doesn't; here some of the values we found:

    LOVE the +45% str bonus on hits for certain values.

    Nothing = 34.99
    All Minden leather (moderate to high quality) = 53.90

    Helms (used head only hits):
    Nothing = 55.79.....(Artisan leather helm = 55.78 how is it lower? lol)
    Minden = 58.02

    These seems to be bugs:
    1. Moving backwards and diagonal is very fast compared to moving forwards and diagonal.
    2. Swing charge doesn't start charging until your character is in the "holding" position but it seems like it should start charging once you start holding the button down.
    3. Artisan helmet gave a lower armor rating than not wearing anything; though very funny.

    So far I'm satisfied with these changes, we didn't get a chance to check out the parry in actual combat (just messed around with it a bit) or the mouse combat, we were still able to do the "fight dance" around each other and end it fairly quick (to much Face of Mankind, must correct and defend lol).

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