Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 26
  1. #11
    Parry

    Not sure i like what has been changed but maybe im being fussy lol

    (Current Parry on LIVE server)
    I can press either mouse button to charge and hold a swing, then hold ALT at same time to parry (with both weapons) an incoming attack, then release ALT and my swing will auto charge up again without repressing a button (provided i continued to hold it down while parrying), i like this as it is almost (but not quite) like a counter attack.

    (Current Parry on TEST server using new mouse mode)
    Press right mouse button to charge swing, while still holding, press left mouse button to parry incoming attack, release left button and parry weapon auto attacks with 0%charge, you then need to press right mouse button again to charge the original swing.
    This to me is cumbersome and with swing speeds slowed down it doesnt feel quite right to me.

    As for the damage mitigation parring provides i was fairly happy with it.

    Possibly add the following to improve (especially if you are planning on staying with the slowed down combat speed):-

    Add back in the auto charging of original swing if you have continued to hold this down while parrying to give a feeling of counter attack which could be further improved like so:-

    As DDT said parry in any direction should still parry the attack.

    If you successfully parry in the correct direction i think you should get a bonus such as,

    1.)the attacking player is stunned for a short while to allow you to get a chance of a counterattack back at them.
    or
    2.)If you again parry in the correct direction your auto swing charge is boosted double the speed for a counter attack.
    or
    3.)Again if you parry in the correct direction your auto swing charge at normal speed causes full damage regardless when you release it.

    Personally i would prefer the swing speed boost option 2 for a successfull parry direction over the other options.

    Hope the above makes sense its easier when performing the actions ingame than trying to type the explanations

    *edit* can we have the option to change and map our own combat actions to our mouse buttons please

  2. #12
    I have to agree on the too slow swing animations. Swinging my pre-order knife (already much slower than a nomal knife) feels like it weighs 20 pounds. Not sure which would be easier, simply adjusting animation speeds or tweaking for PC stats and swing speed modifiers on the weapons. Perhaps allow weapon skill to increase the swing speed cap (not the actual speed) and then agility and varying stats on weapons would effect the speed. Depending on your skill, you may not take advantage of all the bonus speed available. A player would still have to balance faster strikes with energy depletion.

    Energy depletion at the current test level is a bit much. Try a gradual cut back, say start with 25% less and let us see how it feels, if still to much then 33% from current base amount. I would expect depletion to be based on Fort, weapon weight and quality (better balance, etc), power of swing, and a small bit by skill (knowing how to swing optimally).

    Not sure I like the removal of unarmed parry. I think in a fight of unarmed vs unarmed you should be able to parry nearly all damage while vs weapons you would reduce the damage by less than you would if you had a weapon. If it is some technical reason then perhaps we need another skill specifically for unarmed blocking, or simply base the blocking off of unarmed skill. Or maybe the revamped dodge mechanic will favor unarmed?

    Purely aesthetics, but the sidestep in combat looks a bit rigid; the movement doesn't translate into the upper body.

    More as I am able to test...

    Also, when considering a weapon's damage vs a defender's armor you say it is pretty much a skill vs armor rating calc. How would a person swinging a Supreme weapon with +damage mods but 0 skill compare to someone with with the same weapon at 50 or 100 assuming the same armor on the defender? Would there be no effect at all since the damage totaled and dealt based on a ratio of skill to armor? How does Armed Combat skill factor into it? Im just wondering if someone with 90 str, supreme weapon + damage bonus, and gear that adds Str will be entirely negated simply because someone has a few points of armor more than the attacker's skill.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Drevar View Post
    Also, when considering a weapon's damage vs a defender's armor you say it is pretty much a skill vs armor rating calc. How would a person swinging a Supreme weapon with +damage mods but 0 skill compare to someone with with the same weapon at 50 or 100 assuming the same armor on the defender? Would there be no effect at all since the damage totaled and dealt based on a ratio of skill to armor? How does Armed Combat skill factor into it? Im just wondering if someone with 90 str, supreme weapon + damage bonus, and gear that adds Str will be entirely negated simply because someone has a few points of armor more than the attacker's skill.

    Currently on test, Skill vs Armor is the last of the damage calcs.
    If you have 0 (or 5 skill) vs very high armor, then the weapon type, power attack etc has no effect at adding damage when its (skill vs armor is) removing 100% of the damage.

  4. #14
    October 1 2011

    The test server is up with the following combat tweaks:

    - Attack speeds increased.
    - Attack ranges increased and balanced slightly.
    - Damage adjusted for a slightly higher overall DPS (25% higher DPS)
    - Backwards movement slowed.
    - Diagonal movement checked. This should be correct (Diagonal movement speed is the same as backward or side movement).
    - Stamina drain when attacking reduced.
    - Stamina drains when you parry or are hit.
    - Stamina drained when jumping increased.
    - Slightly increased fist damage.
    - Corrected some issues with switching between a held swing and parry. This is still in progress.

    Notes:

    - Parrying with your left or right arm has the same effect. It's the direction of the parry that is important. The only difference will be damage and decay to the correct weapon. The way parry works is: If you parry in the exact correct direction, you parry all damage. The further away your parry is from the attack direction, the less damage you parry.
    - Mouse combat mode will be a choice. I think it will be the preferable choice for a single weapon, or a weapon and shield, but for those that want to dual wield with more skill, the default mode will be better in my opinion.
    - Unarmed combat shouldn't be a viable form of combat versus weapons right now. It will be improved in the future to be made more of a fun form of fighting for contests and tournaments.
    - I'm working on separating the effects of skill and armor to make the system clearer.

    More is in the works, but I want feedback on these tweaks first so we can make sure the system is better one step at a time. This build has changes that have not been checked yet by our test team. We will be testing throughout the night and tomorrow. Everyone is welcome to jump in!

  5. #15
    Is the removal of the ability to move in combat holding both mouse buttons temporary? Hopefully removed before the patch monday....?

    IF it is at least please let me assign a keyboard key to attack function.

  6. #16
    Did some quick testing, it looks really good so far.

    Once I can have some real PVP fights, I will know more.
    First thing I do notice is that Stamina drained from attacks, is based on per attack vs damage. IMO it should be % of damage or something, instead of a per attack. Meaning someone punching very fast 100 times will drain = stamina as someone hitting you with an axe 100 times. Axes are very slow too.

    Added after 2 Hours 20 minutes:

    Still looking good. I only got to test it with 1 player who had poor combat skills on his toon, and not great at combat overall.

    Few things, I did notice but so far looks good I want to test more.

    1) Stamina per attack as noted before
    2) Something is wrong with the defenders % parried, its not showing the right %, the attacker "block" stat is right but defenders all messed up.
    3) Parrying low and being attacked high parries 50% of the attack, parrying high, while being attacked high parries 100% of the attack, parrying high being attacked anywhere other than high parries 50% of the attack. Clearly something is wrong here, there should be more of a chance from being right, to wrong, being sorta right to being wrong.
    To talk a bit more about this
    If you just hold parry middle. You will parry 50% of all attacks without having to make a choice, if they attack middle you will parry 100% of it. There really isnt much of a reason to be right. I believe that the attacker should take a punishment for being 100% parried, more than doing 0 damage and a slight stamina loss due to attacking. I think they should lose 2x or even 3x the stamina for that attack. This will give both the defender and the attacker more of a reason to want fight better. Defender to parry 100% of the damage, and the attacker to see that the defender is parrying his attack and NOT attack that direction and change.
    4) I see no way to break a target from parrying other than trying to get behind them, this goes a bit with #3, in that if there was more of a change then you could see the target parrying and attack 2 places away from his parry. But if you do this, no one will want to attack chest attacks (AKA middle direction) because it will always be only 1 place away from a parry or 100% parry place. I believe chest should yield more damage if you choose to attack that direction, this will make people want to parry the chest more, but again chest would then parry 50% of the time. But I think its a pretty good system, because if someone just held chest, they would overall die.
    5) Punching attacks AKA unarmed, seems a bit slow, damage from punches isnt high to start with.
    6) Stamina can be a major problem when fighting 2 people. Even if I flawless someone (AKA never get hit due to using good parries and attacks and dodging), I will still be around 60% stamina after the 1v1. How would someone then fight another attacker? There is no way to gain stamina back while in a fight other than stand there. So some type of tools to allow people to gain stamina in combat. Potions, better foods, overall regeneration something.
    7) Jumping is combat is totally jacking up combat, it causes major desyc and issues attacking people. When someone jumps they move really weird and when you jump you go FASTER than normal forward movement. (IE. If you sprint and jump you will go faster than a sprint). Stamina loss on a jump isnt very much when you consider being hit for your life and stamina loss. I can see people just jumping all over the place because of this in combat, jumping should cause a lot more stamina to prevent cracked out jumping tactics in combat. Normally jump should rarely be used anyways, meaning you should jump over a ledge, or jump up onto a rock. But jumping on flat land really has no point, its not like jump attacks do more damage or anything.
    8) Can we get the option to change which mouse button in mouse mode combat attacks and which mouse button parries?
    9) Really like how you did dual weapons with this Xsyon combat now. You can attack much faster but not to fast with 2 weapons at the cost of not parring. Looks good. Once shields are in, can really see this being a good DPS vs defense balance. However, right now there is NO reason not to use 2 weapons, I think you should give damage bonus to only having 1 weapon in your hand due to the fact you cant parry very well and cant attack fast very well, or maybe an overall defense bonus. This will give people choices of using 2 weapons vs 1 weapon.
    10) Armor, and weapon decay. Right now they almost never decay, it takes hours of non stop combat to break anything. Fights right now seem to last about 1 to 2 mins (good length IMO) when people do normal skilled parries and manual dodging. That means you would have 100s of fights before you break a weapon, doesnt sound good. I think a Mod or high durability weapon should last about 10 fights. A Very high durability weapon should last 20 fights, and a low durability weapon should last about 2 fights. Plus 1/2 of there max fights they should do 1/2 damage of max pristine durability. You do have these tools in place to adjust these, and I think that would be a good starting point. Armor should last longer than a weapon on a per piece, but overall you should replace your armor at the same amount of fights times # of armor pieces. IE, if you have 15 pieces of armor, you should have to replace ALL your armor pieces once for Very High durability once every 20x15=300 fights. Which is on avg 1 armor piece every 20 fights.



    I will add more, but its late and I cant think. I will be testing more tomorrow.
    *** Great patch, it FEELS a lot more fun. ***

  7. #17
    I'm going to add to what MrDDT said in above post because I agree with all of what he has said.

    (1) Animation speed is much better now. It seems like it could be a little faster. It would be great if this is the base speed. Then combat skill and agility skill could increase this speed by maybe 10-15% faster at skill cap. But overall, this speed feels much better than the previous iteration.

    (2) Weapon damage looks much better now. I was hitting for between 4-7 damage on a coyote with my preorder dissector.

    (3) Parry is becoming more useful now. I agree with what MrDDT said in the post above about parry. It just needs tweaking to have more incentive to parry in the correct direction.

    (4) It is difficult to tell from the animation which direction an animal mob is attacking from. If most animals always attack front low, then ok, otherwise make the animation more pronounced. Maybe include the location of damage taken in the combat log so players know where to block for certain mobs if say mule deer always attack front low. I assume undead mobs will attack from a variety of angles and this will be much clearer to the user from the back swing animation.

    (5) Stamina drain is better now although I believe it still needs adjustment to be less costly. I think this is part of a bigger issue where stamina drain needs to be balanced for all actions. It is my hunch that if we took a player poll, most players would say they are resting way too much in game whether in or out of combat. Like MrDDT said, we either need a good way of regenerating stamina or just make it less costly. This last iteration was a step in the right direction but needs more tweaking in my opinion. Sprint drain rate does seem about right though.

    For issues 6, 7 and 8, I know parry and swing combo issues are still being worked on but I'll list them anyway just for reference:
    (6) There is still some issues when trying to switch from one direction to another when holding a swing or parrying. I use to do drills in Mount and Blade to warm up for battle by holding attacks in different directions in succession and then the same for parry. I would then hold parry, switch to holding a swing, and then back to holding a parry in all different directions. I did all of this without releasing an attack. This allows fluid transition from faking a swing in one direction then switching to another for attack or faking a parry then moving to a strike. It keeps the opponent guessing and adds great depth to the melee system. See video below showing melee switching of direction at time 1:38-1:43. If I try to do this in Xsyon for one weapon, it releasing the swing before I try and switch to another direction. I think all that is needed is a check during the first quarter of the melee swing animation to see if the user is holding another direction for melee swing or parry.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHc...tailpage#t=98s

    (7) There is a bug in combat mouse mode where I hold a swing then hold a parry while holding a swing. When I let go of parry it releases the swing even though I am still holding the swing. This does not happen in default settings.

    (8) You cannot start by holding parry and stop parry by holding a swing. In other words, you cannot do the reverse of what you can do now which is hold a swing then stop the swing by holding the parry and then go back to holding the swing because you never released the swing button.

    (9) Once the dev team looks at adding special melee skills, one should definitely be some sort of parry breaking skill like crushing blow or a kick.

    (10) Maybe make the radius bigger as players and mobs get closer for the UI to decide whether or not to display the health bar.

    Lastly, I want to congratulate the dev team for working hard on these combat tweaks and listening to feedback. It is really coming along now.

  8. #18
    I was the unskilled toon that DDT tested with. Most of our testing was purely technical and number crunching as #1 I am totally not combat oriented on my skills or stats (and there was no guide on to manipulate our stats/skills) and #2 I pretty much suck at FPS style fighting. He will need someone of equal hard number skill and l33t mouse skills to test the true flow of combat.

    The swing speed for everything I used felt decent except unarmed. My agility isn't great so I can see that being a factor, but I still felt like I was punching slower than with my knives. A slow attack speed really hurts if you are trying to use mouse mode. Since you are limited to 1 handed attacks in this mode you lose 50% of your dps vs using both hands to attack. I also noticed that if I attack with my preorder knife in one hand and a normal blade in the other, I have to wait for the ultra slow animation of the pre order to finish before I can get off another swing with my other hand. Using two normal blades is much faster as I don't have the delay.

    Stamina drain didn't seem to be much affected by encumbrance, only swing power. If you are overweighted and try to move a lot, though, that will drain you quickly, so it may be fine as is.

    It would be nice to have the swing power indicator actually somewhere near where I am watching the action rather than the tiny bar at the near bottom of the screen. Something more like the crafting countdown bar.


    One reason why I just can't bring myself to bother to "get good" with this system is 90% of the time I can't see where the hell I am going to swing through the twitchy camera movement. Need a reticle or some kind of highlight on the body part being aimed at. Uberd00ds may not need it, but I don't see myself bothering to fight when I simply cannot use the system we have to try and defend myself. Accessibility needs to be a big consideration. The best hardcore fighting system in the world won't get everyone involved if we can't make heads or tails what the heck is going on in the fight.

  9. #19
    Current system doesnt really promote parrying well.
    I see a lot of people doing "drive by" attacking. Meaning they will charge in with a full attack ready, and run out before the defender can get the counter attack. Unless the defender is using a fast weapon like a fist or a knife they cant really get a hit off.
    Also the defender would have to be very good at parrying to even gain the advantage from many of these attacks.
    Like I said before, needs to be a bigger bonus for parrying 100% correctly, and the attacker for seeing where the defender in parrying and being able to counter it. 50% damage isnt much of a counter.

    I would like to see a better dynimac also for this combat, right now its all just swings and parries (really not much parries because of the lacking of a major bonus). Still circle fighting is happening (This will always happen to a point) because you want to stay out of the attack arc of the person you are fighting, so each will try to circle around.

    Still issue with a large attacker attacking a smaller attacker as they have a hard time seeing what the smaller person is doing due to their body being in the way.
    Ranges seem to be ok, but likely should be balanced based on the weapon a bit more (IE Axes doing more range because they do less damage and same speed as clubs those types of things) knives are still going to be a great weapon of choice in these battles due to charge up time. I also think we can cut off about 15 to 20% off the charge up time, its a bit slow. Same damage, but less time to get full charge.

    Stamina regen is a problem, no real choices to save stamina here other than standing still. Need better choices in food and water types, with maybe potions and other things to help here.
    Same with HP regen. If you are low HP, you have no choice but to run and hope the attacker doesnt follow or have more stamina. Because you need to stop moving to heal up and it takes a about 1 to 2.5mins to do this.

    All in all the combat feels a lot better. I think with special attacks, like knockdowns and long thrusts it can be quite fun and get your blood pumping. I like how long fights are lasting, We tested HP a little with GuideMihr setting our HP and skills, I can see where skills and armor and HP matter, but good players will over come this, and others will make sure they use every armor and weapon bonus they can to get the edge.

    I fought Tara on the test server (she isnt that great with combat) and I had slightly less HP, 25% lower skills than her, she was in bone I was naked, and both had the same type of weapons.
    Using Spam attacking fighting. (No parries for me or her) She killed me very fast, and I got her down about 25% (75% left).
    Using Charge in attacks (no parries but full charge drive by attacks), I beat her with a me about 1/2 HP. (Did this a few times)

    I put on bone armor, everything else the same. It was a close fight but I won. Using spam attacking fighting. (No parries for me or her)
    Using Charge in attacks (no parries but full charge drive by attacks), I beat her with a me about 2/3 HP Left, and a few times better. (Did this a few times)
    I tried to parry her, parrying 100% of the attacks by taking only 50% or 0% of the damage, and trying to get attacks in, and I lost big time.(Did this a few times) I would say I parried 100% about 1/2 the time, and 50% the other 1/2. Problem here was even when I got a good 100% parry in, I couldnt get an attack off without her either still attacking at full damage, or me going back into a fast parry and taking .5 damage while only hitting her for a minor amount (due to her skills being higher it was losing battle).

    Stamina didnt become an issue in ANY of the fights, however, a few I did run down to about 50% stamina. So I think that is pretty good. I think people running around like crack heads wont be as big of a deal due to this.


    I would like to test this with well skilled players, that parry and dodge attacks better. I'm not being mean to these players as they know they are not focused on combat, I talked to most at length after each fight.

    I cant give more feedback til then, but it feels a lot better.

    To sum this up. I think parry needs to have more of an effect when you do 100% parry vs the attacker, and the attacker needs more choice when they see the target doing a parry to get an advantage. Right now parry seems not to be used very much.
    Also I would like to see stamina and healing regen options for combatants.


    Good work on armor, I think its still not effective enough but we can tweak that later, weapon QL and Dura surely make a difference. Stats for STR do make a difference. I didnt notice AGI or not. I would like to do some more testing on that, I dont think it makes any difference on attack speeds right now so that makes me a sad panda. If it does its not something one would notice.

    Good job guys, I cant wait for the patch tomorrow.

  10. #20
    After more testing.

    I think that attack swings overall are a good speed. (Preorders are slow as heck, as they should be due to the damage they do). But one thing I noticed is that AFTER you release your mouse, your weapon is attacking (or releasing) slowly. I think this could be sped up a lot and not really effect the defenders chance to parry, due to mostly they should be parrying in the draw back of the swing, and not the incoming attack. If its a problem for parry, then make the draw back slightly slower.
    Reason for this is because right now on slower weapons, you have to let go of your mouse long before you have the target in your X hairs. Making it so that attackers will do charge in charge out attacks more often.


    Also as I said before, parry 100% correct dir should yield a better reward.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jHc...tailpage#t=92s
    If you watch that video and watch where the attacker is parried their attacks reel them back for a split second. This allows the defender to do something or extra time to charge up or whatever to get an edge on the attacker when they parry correctly.

    Also I would like to see more feedback when you hit a target, or are parried. It just feels like people are swinging away.

    Again stamina use looks good right now, however, no choices in combat to do anything about HP or stamina when you are low.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •