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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    I fully agree that high supply (or volume) with weight make trade unfeasible in its current state. Doesnt mean it cant be fixed, and I'm not saying its easy to fix it. This is a major problem for a long time and needs to be looked at from the ground up.

    EVE's a sandbox game with a system working just like I told you. I'm not really sure how you think its not similar. Is Xsyon similar to EVE's economy right now? Nope. I would like it to be closer to it, as I believe its a strong economy for a sandbox game. I also see ways of making Xsyon close to it. Starting with those things I listed.


    Travel in Xsyon is a major issue. Lack of energy regen systems (resting is the only way, potions, buffs, healing stations etc).
    Lack of a faster mode of travel other than sprinting which greatly effects your energy see above why that's a problem.
    Weight of items and gear effecting your energy decay.
    Lack of faster roads that are prebuild sure players can make the new faster roads but MANY issues with doing that on a larger scale.
    No modes of travel with mounts or cars or planes or rail system, magical travel etc.

    This travel and transportation issue needs to be addressed while also looking at limited local traded goods. (Much like EVE has). These limited local traded goods need to have and hold a value to players to want to have them and use them. Along with decay.
    I will start by saying, Eve's economy system was built by a couple of people who have extensive experience and degrees in finance, economics, and global markets, unlike Xsyon.

    There could be much that could be learned by this system in Eve by several "sandbox" MMOs.

    The problems are as you mentioned several fold. We do need a beast of burden system, draft animals or just taming so we can do those things, that will help lift the problem. Otherwise we end up with the Roma Victor problem of people staying on their home boards and just creating alt accounts to make things they cant make or need. Which does the oppossite of promoting trade.

    While I am opposed to having a trade fair every 3 days or on "founders isle" everytime. I am not oppossed, to the guide supported fast travel system, until we get mounts or draft animals to make transporting items a bit faster.

    Currently if I were to run strait line from where I live in the southwest with a cart, 40-60min of travel to get to IS-Bootcamp location, about 60-90min of travel to the Mercs location. And thats because there are no roads that are near me, and many mountains that I can not get a cart over.

    So I suggest the next big dev push should be fixing these issues.
    -Draft animals and or mounts
    -rarer resources for crafting and trade
    -Cart security and structure rental

    With those three things the economy will have the most basic level of what is needed to get the ball rolling on its own.

    Right now there are to many common resource items, the quality of resources isnt dependant on where you are but on your skill, which should have some affect on things, but the location should have a larger affect. In the wonderful real world, Washington Granite is better than Morrocan granite. Not all granite sources are equal, not all limestone is equal, not all timber is equal.

  2. #22
    Why do you need global trade in the first place???

    Ideally most trade could be local, unfortunately as you pointed out we have a problem with population. There is a limited market that seems to getting tighter all the time. Yes who will buy my carts now? You should they last forever and are indestructible?

    If it was a planned out more that certain areas had more of an abundance in types of materials or even quality and crafters had rare recipes to play with then a global trade could happen albeit very slowly. The larger tribes and more experienced PvP players could do trading caravans that could travel from trade centre to trade centre. Creator could tag along to do the crowd attracting entertainment for them.

    The first issue to make any of this possible though is the encumbrance limit when using carts which I'm sure the devs could resolve overnight by a few algorithm adjustments. There's other issues, but this is the bear minimum to remove the teleporting service.

    Areas of rare resources could be located in each corner of the map as already discussed in other forum posts for PvP and yes we could have a Post Apocalyptic "Eve" at walking pace if we have enough evil tribes who want to raid the caravans for their own profit. Again they would not want to suffer the encumbrance of the swag though upon getaway.

  3. #23
    Juda your right about Eve, mostly.

    If that were true then Mortal Online would be HUGE, if not bigger than Eve. As it has short travel distances, rare resources, and is PvP focused. Eve has a modern and deep economic structure that isnt JUST based on PvP, it is also required for crafting, PvE, and exploration (what little there is). Not to mention a constantly changing and evolving gameverse.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by prokop15 View Post
    First of all, on the topic of "learning from EVE"... Xsyon has very little to learn from EVE. The games are polar fucking opposites in every way imaginable. EVE is a space game in which you can travel between trade hubs in minutes. The markets are driven by war between huge corporations and alliances fighting to control resources. Xsyon is an apocalyptic game in which you can travel between tribes in hours. The markets are driven by whoever wants to build the largest treehouse that day. Get real. There is only one thing Xsyon has to learn from EVE --- PvP is important,

    I think Inhabit is most correct in pointing out the real question, that I hope some of you will answer here:
    Why do you need global trade in the first place???

    Is it because the economy and crafting is so poorly done that, for example, Wainrights like Qwerty need the entire game world to buy from him in order to justify his tradeskill?

    It's a really confusing mess you've got here. It seems like you're just trying to circumvent the entire game to crowbar in one aspect of sandboxes that you think will legitimize this one. This game wasn't designed for global trade, so why is it such a focus, with the trade fairs and now this thread?

    EVE's system isnt based on PVP. Its based on limited local resources and risk vs reward.

    Anyways I dont want to fight about EVE and what it's system is. I do want to say this problem will not be fixed with a simple change to the weight of carts. Its a core in depth problem. Changing the weight of what is in a cart would help slightly but the real issues are at the core of the game.

    Ive listed most of those problems already. They take a lot of dev time in thought and coding.

    No where in Xsyon does it take hours to get by the way. EVE's travel system can take as long. I can go from 1 side of the map corner to the other in 15mins.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    No where in Xsyon does it take hours to get by the way. EVE's travel system can take as long. I can go from 1 side of the map corner to the other in 15mins.
    I call total BS on this and would have to see it to believe it. With 100 running and an good agility suit (150ish AGI) it takes a good amount of time for me to get from 820 down to 696 if visiting River/Willow. You must have 250+ agility or you're blowing steam again...

  6. #26
    Xsyon Citizen Osirrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuideRaguel View Post
    Hello everyone,

    Myself and the Developers are following this thread, and I must say we are quite surprised at some of the posts here.

    We originally thought that players wanted less and less involvement from the guide team, and also wanted us to stop the taxi service that players were getting to and from the Trade fair to encourage a more immersive and realistic gameplay.

    Going forward, our goal is to hand over the Trade Fair Market to the community 100%, safe for the Announcements for them, which we would do.

    Now reading through the posts it appears to us that your main concerns are weight and encumbrance.

    Since our Goal is to hand this over, and not teleport players to the Markets, and keeping this in mind we would love to have some feedback on a few points...

    • What would you normally carry with you (including numbers if you can), on a single trip to the Trade fair in which you get ported to?


    Wainwrights need a way to carry multiple carts inside another cart.
    Woodcrafters need to be able to carry full baskets of wooden handles etc
    Masons need to be able to carry a few 1000 bricks
    Hunters need to be able to carry 100s of bones
    Tailors need to be able to carry a few 1000 twine
    Scavengers need to be able to carry 100s of metal sheets
    etc ect


    • Baring in mind that different items have their own weights, What would you consider being a reasonable number of items to carry in a cart, before it becomes to energy draining? Try to give examples please.


    You should be able to fill it with as much as it can hold, whether that be 5 logs in a 5 slot cart or 20 baskets full to the brim in a 20 slot cart.
    there should be a maximum of 50 or 60% encumberance and movement speed penalty. (carts need to be a viable PVP target to compensate for the amount you can carry... do you risk taking everything in one run or do it in multiple trips in case you get attacked and looted etc)


    • Lastly, what would you suggest we can alter to carts or the characters, that would encourage you to trade the normal way, and not rely on a teleport to do the trading?



    1. Trade Fair Host needs to be able to allow trader to unhook their carts on the the tribeland. buyers need to be able to see inside carts via permissions granted by the cart owner (view only ?)

    2. Expansion Totems that allow players to terraform a path suitable for carts. so that we can form roads/bridges to connect trade routes or a path to the lake (see 3) expansion totems should be a viable PVP target

    3. Give us the ability to create simple rafts that a cart can be pulled onto and transported across the lake/down rivers. it should be possible to pack up the raft and place it on you back like logs/branches etc or in one cart slot. you should have to stand at a tiller/wheel to steer raft with wasd. rafts should have no ownership. anyone can jump on and steer the raft. rafts should take 30 secs to pack/unpack. during which time if you are attacked the timer stops. rafts should be lootable off of dead players backs. Rafts should greatly increase travel speed on water, to approx 80 swim skill speed, so that they are still attackable by swimmers

    4. Make carts a viable PVP target. i.e when the carts owner dies there cart becomes lootable for the same time as the normal player loot window


    We would be very interested to hear what you have to say about this, and we will take all your feedback into consideration.

    the biggest thing you should take into consideration is that Xsyon was designed with local trade in mind and hopefully the player base will only increase over the coming years. do you want to basically waste time now fixing a problem that will fix itself once the player base increases and spreads out a bit more.

    with the introduction of totem decay/expansion totems and more reasons to PVP along with ranged combat and heal abilities will see a greater retention of players and will fix the problem of the need for long distance trade.

    until such a time that there is the ability to get from one side of the lake to the other (north to south) in 15-30 mins with a fully laden cart, you are still going to have to offer the teleportation service.


    Thank you for your feedback so far.
    My thoughts

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Shill View Post
    I call total BS on this and would have to see it to believe it. With 100 running and an good agility suit (150ish AGI) it takes a good amount of time for me to get from 820 down to 696 if visiting River/Willow. You must have 250+ agility or you're blowing steam again...
    Again?

    I have just over 200 AGI. Plus maybe I'm off by 3 or 4 mins. Either way its not that big of a map when you consider most of it is water, which is very fast. I dont know what a "Good amount of time" is but getting from 820 to 696 wouldnt take but like 6mins for me, maybe less. Use roads and water, as they help a lot.

    Added after 6 minutes:

    Quote Originally Posted by prokop15 View Post
    Limited local resources that are controlled through PvP.
    Risk vs Reward, where the risk is PvP. People buy big expensive mission and mining fits, but the only time they are lost is in PVP.
    The vast majority of the items and resources are being expended in PvP. The demand for items is due to PvP. The supply for items is controlled by PvP. EVE IS ABOUT PVP.



    Oh, so Hodo was lying when he said it took him ~1 hour to travel between his totem and IS' or the Merc's? You can travel from corner to corner in 15 minutes... are you carrying a full cart?

    Oh and that reminds me of another issue I saw playing last week -- extreme imbalance of stats. Dang came and visited me by my totem one day, and if it was any game other than Xsyon, I would have reported him for speed hacking. But I know that this is Xsyon, where the character creation and stat system is THAT bad. Remember when Jordi spent months reassuring everyone how people would be generally able to avoid ganks? 99% of the characters in game would have no chance escaping Dang.

    Now, you may think the previous paragraph is off-topic, but it's not. Who do you balance carts for? The players with top speed, middle speed, or bottom speed? Top encumbrance, middle encumbrance, or bottom encumbrance? It apparently takes you 15 minutes to cross from one corner of the map to another, yet it takes Hodo around an hour to move a shorter distance, between two tribe totems. How long do you think it takes for the characters built for skills that dont include agility and strength, a few hours? and with a cart? ROFL.

    PVP doesnt have to play any part at all. I dont know why you feel PVP is the only way for this to happen. Supply and demand is the going on whether or not PVP is even in the game. You see EVE being about PVP when its so much more than that. You can play in EVE and never even get into a battle with someone else if you stay in high sec. You have NPCs you can fight and make money from or even farm resources and make money in high sec. Low/Null sec is where most of the PVP takes place (outside of wormholes) and its rewarded with higher valued items.

    Demand for items can come from many aspects. PVE alone can create a demand for items.

    Hodo could have taken him 1 hour from 1 zone to the next. I also not talking about dragging a cart. Carts are jacked up in many ways and for long travel are not worth it at all. Once they remove deathporting they will be required more but still not really worth it.

    About the stats, I fully agree. I believe that STR/FORT/AGI are way to powerful compared to SPI/CHA/INT/DEX because they effect you in other ways. I believe its off topic, but linking it the way you did I would say mostly balance the carts so most people have fun. By now my guess is the avg person playing has around 70AGI, 90AGI if you count what they wear on avg for gear. So I guess you balance it around that.

  8. #28
    Believe it or not people die in PVE also, creating demand also.

    There are some areas that are harder PVE. EVE has PVP and they make the game focus more on PVP. However, an economy in a sandbox doesnt need to have PVP. I hate having to say this because I do like PVP, and I want to see it in a sandbox, but facts are facts. You dont NEED PVP to create a demand. I believe its easier to use PVP but its not the only way.

    You can take other games and find there is a demand for goods even when those games have no PVP.


    I agree fully that Xsyon's economy is broken in many ways. Demand is very low, Supply is very high. Mostly due to lack of decay and how easy resources are to gather. I agree also that there is few if any true resource sinks. The only ones I know are A)Building which has no purpose, and B)Skilling up.

    My point was not that PVP cant help create more of a demand. It was only that it wasnt required. You can create demand through either or, neither are required to be in the game to create demand. The demand problem with Xsyon is a multilevel issue.

    I just dont want people to think that PVP is the only answer for economy. I want people to see why the economy isnt working, and PVP isnt the cause nor is lack of PVP the cause. Its many other aspects.
    Ones Ive already listed to start with.

  9. #29
    Hello Survivors,

    Taking all your feedback into consideration, we are going to commence the Teleportation service for players to continue to enjoy the Trade fair and the benefits that the event comes with.

    We will look at all your feedback, and see what can be done to improve the current system.

    Thank you everyone, you can still post feedback if you wish to do so in this thread.

  10. #30
    The way Juda talks up Eve makes me want to play it again. But then I think about the painful skill system that I might as well build a macrobot to run my ship and the monthly fee to do it, and the WoW in space feel to it, I just cant go back. I loved the economy, but I still like a bit of realism in my games.

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