Armor Nerf Issue!

[MrDDT]

unclean666 Asks:

So what I would like to know is how you plan on fixing all this to making hunting worth the time and making it fun again

Xsyon Answers:



I condensed your question to answer the main issue.

Your concern is primarily with the stat 'nerf' on armor. The out of control stats caused several issues: None of the game systems were designed for stats in the range of 150-200. With stat gains so high on armor, regular stat gain over time is practically useless. Stats that primarily have effects limited at 100 (for crafting or resource gathering) become useless as starting stats as they can be replaced by sets of high stat armor when needed (with the coming crafting changes, 'high' stat suits for all stats, not just combat focused stats will be possible). There was a huge gap between mid level veteran players and a handful of players with high stat armor suits.

Add this nerf made me aware that a stat gain of 25 point is not valuable to veteran players. It should be! This tells me that the issue is NOT in the actual stat gain, but the EFFECTS of these stats. A 25 point stat different SHOULD be noticeable. 100 points in a stat SHOULD be highly desirable and STATS in the range of 125 SHOULD be exceptional! These are the goals for the next round of changes.

In conclusion, I feel that the armor stat nerf was a minor action but was our biggest step forward yet as it made me well aware of what truly needs to be adjusted and balanced.

I'm sorry that we had to switch gears and focus on our website rather than the crafting update. It wasn't what we planned. This was highly recommended by the ad agency we're working with and it needs to be done.

My main problem is the effect of stats, and the fact that you are forced into 3 or 4 stat types on your armor other than crafting suits.

Now everyone is going to be running around in the EXACT same armor as everyone else, with pretty close to the same EXACT stats.

People are going to Have 25STR/25AGI/25FOR/25SPI armor on because of your nerf, and just about everyone will have pretty much max STR/FOR/AGI because its so overpowering.

On top of this, getting the quad type of gear is very easy to make, sure might not have 25 in every stat but going to have 15+ which means that even crafters who are crap, and gatherers who are crap will be able to get these suits.

Where is the choice in players play style?

Like I said before, I didnt boost FOR because my play style used AGI mostly. While others used a mix of FOR and STR, and still others used FOR or STR suits. (I list these 3 because those really are the only choices for basic everyday play because of how over powering they are).

I dont see how 58% of your stat (120 base stat +80 bonus from armor +8 from tribe bonuses) isnt effective in your build. Yet you some how think that armor with less than a total of 16% is going to be a MAJOR effect.
Sorry to say but 16% is crap, plus on top of that when you figure that most people are going to have 8 to 12% of that 16% its really down to 4%
While base stats vary easy from 0 to 120.

Old system was great for avg players too because they could use a suit and not have to grind for a year for 80+ stat points.
Now the only way they can compete with vet players is to be a year + vet themselves.

This idea is removing the worth of crafting, and removing the choice in the game on playstyles.

You call this a "minor" change yet, this is the main reason I'm no longer playing, its the main reason a few others I know quit also. This has a HUGE effect on crafting and the value of crafters in game. Funny you just brush this off as a MINOR issue yet its one of the worst things I've seen done in game that totally blows off crafting.

Whats even more funny is, I'm less of a crafter than most others in this game. Ive been forced into understanding crafting and being a crafter because pretty much all there is (and builder). You would think this change isnt a big deal to someone like me but even I can see how much this effects the livelihood of my crafters in my tribe, and other tribes, trade and world economy. All the gear now is not only trash or almost ineffective, but also crafters are just brushed aside as not really even needed or wanted. With little to no skills players can craft gear thats mostly as effective as top end crafters who spent 1000s of hours, and tons of working together with gatherers to make this gear.

Even using your own thoughts here that you want gear to have that major of effect, you are still doing both with the current set up you have of having 25/25/25/25 stats on gear. Just you are removing it from players that want to have a choice instead of being a clone of everyone else.

You have already built into the game diminishing returns on high stats. Why is it a problem when people stack it? Because now they can craft gear better by putting on a very very hard and costly suit to get? Sounds like a great working system to me.
The problem is no decay on these suits, not in combat, and not in crafting. Not the fact that people can get them.

I would like to see what other people have to say on this issue. I dont know anyone who thinks its a good idea other than Xsyon himself.

Points in the topic.
i)What is the armor nerf going to do to help economy?
ii)Was there a problem with the old system?
iii)Do you feel that high end armor is worth taking the time it takes to make it?

[Mactavendish]

I find this thread very funny.

You quit playing because in an effort to level the playing field, it affected you so much you dont have fun... awwww....

This is how almost everyone that quit has felt for one reason or another.

IF... yes, IF he makes changes that bring animals more into balance then I say what he says his plans are is a step in the right directions.

I actually think he is now listening to more average players and planning for all types rather than listening to the very few at the top that were so OP as to make all effort seem futile.


Well done Jordi in curbing the pitbull.

[MrDDT]

I find this thread very funny.

You quit playing because in an effort to level the playing field, it affected you so much you dont have fun... awwww....

This is how almost everyone that quit has felt for one reason or another.

IF... yes, IF he makes changes that bring animals more into balance then I say what he says his plans are is a step in the right directions.

I actually think he is now listening to more average players and planning for all types rather than listening to the very few at the top that were so OP as to make all effort seem futile.


Well done Jordi in curbing the pitbull.

I dont think you understand what this is doing. This is going to effect me LESS than it effects everyone else.

See you dont understand is what will happen. So instead of me having 200 AGI and 120STR, 120FOR. I will now have 150AGI, 150STR and 150FOR.

Now on the outside the effect looks the same. Or close to the same just lower high end AGI. Problem is that 200AGI, 120, 120 is more effective for me but overall worse. Because my PLAYSTYLE allows me to want to pick AGI. But now everyone that is top end is forced into the same playstyle now, of being well rounded.

So you still wont be able to kill me, as I will still have high stats problem is I dont get to play how I want.
Ive tried to explain this before with how other people mostly pick other stats than I do.

So you had people like Dang and Deacon would go another route than I did. They went with 200FOR, 120STR, 120AGI. Because they have a different playstyle than I do. Players like you will still not be able to reach the stats we have, plus the effects of high stats have diminishing returns. All this does is remove the CHOICE in the types of armors we can have not the true effects.
That choice is also causing issues for crafters as now because of the lack of choice the effective playstyles are really null, because instead of needing high skills to CRAFT +80 armor or even +60 armor. Now you can make +20,20,20,20 armor with moderate skills.

If you think this is going to "HELP" the avg COMBAT player? It wont. If you think it will help the avg CRAFTER then you are right. This is not a major nerf to the combat players, its a MAJOR nerf to the crafters.
But it also hurts them in a way too because now they cant make choices in play style, plus they wont be able to sell their wares as just about anyone can make them.

Where it hurts the combat players is because we needed our hunting to be worth something to crafters (for them to craft us high end stuff for our hunted goods) they don't need high skilled hunters. Making hunting a poor resource gathering skill (still one of the stronger ones but none the less nerfed)


So you think its going to reign advanced players like me in on combat, but all this is really doing is hurting GREATLY the crafters worth in game, and the "hunter's" worth in game.

Again here is an issue that you think I'm trying to beef up myself, or prevent me from being nerfed when its not true at all. I have a drive to play this game but it requires all types of players, Crafters, PVPers, and even PVEers. You remove too many people from any slot on that list and it hurts my fun and playstyle.
Why dont you READ what I wrote and think of it coming from someone else and understand how this effects people OTHER than DDT, and read WHY. I think you are too caught up in the messenger instead of the message.

[inhabit]

I for one am really interested in the outcome of this conversation. As for playing for over a year now I have never fully focused into 1 trade as the effort/time involved in relation to gain and fear of them changing things has always played on my mind.
I have always aimed to focus on combat and hunting which the game has never really been overly friendly for leveling (standing hitting your tribe mate for hours not included . But through natural gameplay as it should be. Is my time spent hunting going to make my bones and leather valuable to others for trading and making worthwhile combat suits to different playstyles, this is what I need to know.

I dont know if many have the knowledge or for that matter want to share it but i would ask the following initial questions:-

If you start a fresh combat character with 90str,90fort,90spirit,90charm, 90agility base naked stats. Over time grinding (which id imagine is alot) you increase the base stat for fortitude and strength to 100 what is the approx base HP gain and gain in damage dealt?

Is there a cap on the max base stats through grinding?

Is the HP gain from 80-90fort stat the same as from 90-100?

What is the approx damage mitigation from a basic bone suit to a supreme suit?

What is your guess at what a typical vets base fort/strength are?

If your suit has +25 fort bonus what HP gain can you expect which would bring a noob from 90 to 115fort?

To make one of the max level bone suits you would need all of the the following, Master tools/High level Hunter/High Level Bonecrafter/High Level Scavenger/Group to take on the high level creatures for mats......is this correct?

[MrDDT]

I for one am really interested in the outcome of this conversation. As for playing for over a year now I have never fully focused into 1 trade as the effort/time involved in relation to gain and fear of them changing things has always played on my mind.
I have always aimed to focus on combat and hunting which the game has never really been overly friendly for leveling (standing hitting your tribe mate for hours not included . But through natural gameplay as it should be. Is my time spent hunting going to make my bones and leather valuable to others for trading and making worthwhile combat suits to different playstyles, this is what I need to know.

I dont know if many have the knowledge or for that matter want to share it but i would ask the following initial questions:-

If you start a fresh combat character with 90str,90fort,90spirit,90charm, 90agility base naked stats. Over time grinding (which id imagine is alot) you increase the base stat for fortitude and strength to 100 what is the approx base HP gain and gain in damage dealt?

Is there a cap on the max base stats through grinding?

Is the HP gain from 80-90fort stat the same as from 90-100?

What is the approx damage mitigation from a basic bone suit to a supreme suit?

What is your guess at what a typical vets base fort/strength are?

If your suit has +25 fort bonus what HP gain can you expect which would bring a noob from 90 to 115fort?

To make one of the max level bone suits you would need all of the the following, Master tools/High level Hunter/High Level Bonecrafter/High Level Scavenger/Group to take on the high level creatures for mats......is this correct?

Let me answer this as best as I can.

90STR to 100STR is a 5% bonus to damage. All other stats give 0 bonus to damage. HP gain would be +5, +12, +2, +1 = 20HP

Currently there is no hard cap that I know of for stat gain through grinding, however, there is a strong soft cap at around 110. I would say no one has more than me and I'm at close just over 120 in one of my stats.

Yes, I believe from all my testing each point of FOR gives the same HP no matter what level that FOR is.

What is basic bone suit? Pretty much I would consider someone with 50 skill and 80stats making basic armor MOD to VHQ bone armor (as its very easy) makes about 30% less damage when attacked with someone with 100 skill in weapon/armed. Supreme set is about 38% less damage.

I would say a vet that has been playing 5+ months would have around 95STR and 95FOR IF they started at 90 in those stats. If they just changed over after the stat changes, it is likely slightly less.

90 to 115FOR is 30HP bonus.

That is no longer correct to make the max suits currently. Right now you can max out bone suits without all that stuff, even as low as 70QL on items. Also there are no mutants so this is just going off normal animals which surely doesnt need a group to kill.
This is due to change after his update of armor, and likely when mutants are back in the game. Plus things are a bit buggy right now as someone with 50 skill can max out the bonuses on armor easy.

[tomduril]

I believe that all that talk about "trading" of armor/weapons is just an excuse - Like Jordy said - the only "high" stats armors in the game (it was a very low number around 10 ?!?) was traded within the tribe - or not traded at all.

The prices on the armors were ridiculus (ok, they are supreme ... but anyone with that much "nails" has probably a better source than trading) - so its actually not about trade!

What was traded in the past? Shemes (Toolcrafting, Architecture, Wrainright), Tools, Carts and probably nails and grass twine? Am I right? MrDDT you and your tribe have been probably most active in trading - how many Supreme/Master armor set have you traded? How many of the armors with more than +25 on a stat have you ever traded (not within the tribe - but with other players outside your tribe) - I would bet: not so many - probably 1-2 sets ?

So whats the point? Armor trading was never really reality - and it was *not* because there was no armor around "worth" trading - but ppl could just not aford them - and trading for mediocre armor was probably not an issue - as you could "do-it-yourself" as you have written so many times.

So the nerf does *not* influence trade! Because there was never any real amount of trading going on with the old system anyhow.

[Xsyon]

My main problem is the effect of stats, and the fact that you are forced into 3 or 4 stat types on your armor other than crafting suits.

Now everyone is going to be running around in the EXACT same armor as everyone else, with pretty close to the same EXACT stats.

People are going to Have 25STR/25AGI/25FOR/25SPI armor on because of your nerf, and just about everyone will have pretty much max STR/FOR/AGI because its so overpowering.

On top of this, getting the quad type of gear is very easy to make, sure might not have 25 in every stat but going to have 15+ which means that even crafters who are crap, and gatherers who are crap will be able to get these suits.

This is not how the changes are going to work. As stated before the current 25 point limit is temporary and does NOT reflect the full system changes we are working on. It was a quick change to adjust overall stat limits before revenants were released. Players will not be able to wear suits that add 25 to those four stats.

When our revisions are in place I will solicit feedback and we will make appropriate adjustments. At the moment, this is all pure false speculation and only serves to distract from our development. Because of this I am locking this thread.