Skill Gain System

[JCatano]

Jadzia wrote:
It was impossible to afk macro, the problem you saw on youtube were human bots, gold farmers from poor countries ( I don't want to name any).

A bot is an AFK macro. Apply scripts and you've got a bot.

6. What is AFK training?

AFK training is Away From Keyboard training. While you are playing on our games, you must be at the computer. Away-from-keyboard training is not allowed, and you should log out when you leave the computer.

That's in RS's TOS for a reason... People do it. It sucks, but we'll have to deal with it here, too. I just hope it's not widespread.

[DonViper]

Now i was going to sugesth the Runescape metode my self, considering that the Gods are back let them be seen, if you whant a readon lets say over work of a certan area a of land or some thing weird to do with the gods. Redusing skill gane or setting a max gain per day is just going to get frustrating, if you only like to craft its going to be annoying if you have maxed you cfratfing skill gain for that day and are forced to go fighting id not fun

[kiwibird]

The problem I see is that if its only GM controlled, GMs will be doing bot control a lot of the time.

And at first that should be expected. But if its only GM controlled then it become problematic. It sucks when others macro, when they do it, they have the ability to not only do it with one character, but with many.

While Xsyon wont allow dual clients (that I'm aware of), it isn't hard to get around this.

What is needed isn't so much as a 'Game Control' to combat bots, but a GM, Player and Game Control SYSTEMS. It shouldn't just be up to GMs to combat it. Players if they believe it is wrong should have tools to combat it. And in a sense, they do, kill the person who is botting and take the loot. The problem with this however is you can't kill if you have good alignment and the person botting is good alignment as well.

I think at first we need a Game Control and GM system, that is critical if botting is going to be against ToS. Then when religion comes out, work into that anti-botting tools so that players can control it, if they believe its wrong.

Level 1 - Aggressive Cat: A young kitten that seeks your target and attacks, not able to kill most things that know its there, but can pull them down if they aren't fully there.

Level 5 - Aggressive Duo: A kitten and his mother seek out a sole target to attack. Causes medium levels of damage, but typically wont kill a person who is fully there.

Level 20 - Summon {Lesser God/dess name}: Summons the entity of {God/dess} to badger the target. Answer his question correctly and he vanishes without trace taking {penalty to the caster}, if target gets it wrong, {God/dess} summons a {strong animal but weaker than the God/dess}. Fail to answer at all and the target faces the full wraith of {God/dess}.

etc etc etc

If that system gets used, then GMs can get back to other duties and simply read logs (if applicable) and see who and where these powers are being used and if a more GM ability is required, ie temp jail time, full jail time, other something else.

The best thing about the above 'abilities' is not that the player is forced into just combating botting, but able to use them in actual play. Annoying yes, but you should typically (in my view) take out spell casters first anyway, then ranged, then melee.

[edaw22]

Heres how I see it.

When it comes to the topic of AFK macroing there are two separate things that need to be considered, getting just one of these factors right will never solve the issue.

1. It needs to seem unnecessary.

2. It needs to be made difficult.

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Skill Caps

What many people do not realize is that the huge issue darkfall currently has with AFK macroing is very much due to inherent flaws in its skill progression system. Darkfall has no form of skill cap. To a new player this at first appears to be a good thing, they think it means no artificial limitations and you are free to make your character however you want.

What the players, and in fact the developers did not consider is that creating a system with no caps and in which every skill CAN be maxed out is that the situation would arise that player feel they NEED every skill maxed out to be competitive. This of course lead to a rush to have as many skills as high as possible, and thus AFK macroing. A side effect of this was that new players felt they had been left way behind and so they also partook in AFK macroing.

This issue is literally resolved with the introduction of a Softcap and Skill decay system. These two systems work together to ensure that a player must make logical choices about how they wish to progress their character and ensure that a player may redesign their characters skill setup if they so wish however due to the fluent and progressive nature of both systems this is achieved in an immersive and realistic manner.

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Diminishing Returns

However Darkfalls issues were not only due to a lack of skill caps they were also due to the manner in which the skill progression vs gain in effectiveness was arranged.

In Darkfall the regular weapon skills really did very little, it was not until the player reached 75 skill, and they could get a weapon mastery that the damage increased significantly. Like wise even in their higher "tier" magics such as fire magic, damage did not improve significantly until the player reached 100 and could buy Intensity Fire Magic at which point damage sky rocketed.

What can we learn from this?

When a player raises a skill the largest portion of effectiveness a skill gives should be gotten at the lower ranges in a skill and the higher levels of skill should simply reward the dedicated player with a competitive "edge".

For example (fictional numbers only), by the time a player raises their weapon skill from 1-50 they should have received 75% of the effectiveness/damage bonus that the weapon skill gives. There fore the remaining 25% of skill effectiveness if gained over the next 50 levels.

Now this is just an example to represent the core idea behind diminishing returns and thus the numbers are of course exaggerated.
However a system such as this means that new players can gain effectiveness far quicker than a veteran player and thus, atleast begin to catch up. However at the same time veteran players are still rewarded for the time and dedication they have spent raising a skill with a competitive edge over lower skilled players.

Therefore the overall result of a Softcap and Skill Decay system combined with diminishing returns is that New players feel they are actually able to catch up and compete without resorting to AFK macroing and veteran players are still encouraged to level their favored skill as high as possible. But both players must make choices in regards to their characters development and thus neither feel the need to max out every skill and AFK macro to do so as it is simply not possible.

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GM Enforcement

I know it probably felt like a long time ago due to the wall of text you just read, and I applaud you for getting this far but there was another crucial point that needed to be addressed.

Making AFK Macroing diffcult. This is possible not quite as important as making the player feel that AFK macroing isnt necessary but it still plays a vital role in the prevention of AFk macroing.

What many developers and indeed players do not understand is that if a player feels that they can gain an advantage over another player with little effort on their part THEN THEY WILL. It is as simple as that.

Developers can put all the thought, time and effort they want into designing a system that makes the player feel viable, and encourages them to play the game at their own pace in he knowledge they can catch up to others, but all this is in vein if it is easy for a player to press a key on their G-15 or run a script and walk away in the knowledge that when they return they will have progress with no effort on their part.

For this reason it is crucial that the developers make their views on AFK macroing, as well as the punishments that will occur for such actions clearly known from the start, if this means an in game message, a forum announcement or a place in the EULA.

Once the developers standpoint on AFK Macroing is clear then the decided punishments for such activities need to be enforced by GMs to the best of their abilities. We all know GMs cant be everywhere and we all know people will get away with it, but the entire point of this half of the plan is to minimize the effect that such actions have on other players and the game at large.

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Current Game Direction

Luckily enough both the Soft cap and Skill Decay systems along with the diminishing returns are already designed into the games skill system, it is just a matter of having them all balanced to work in cohesion with one and other to create the right experience for the player.

In regards to the developers take on AFK macroing, we are yet to see. However you can rest assured that if the community pushes for a gaming experience that is not degraded by the presence of rampart AFK macroing then the developers will be happy to put the effort in to make that a reality.
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TL;DR

Please read the full post to get the right idea but there is a summary.

Make macroing difficult as well as unnecessary by...

Soft cap and Skill Decay system combined with dimnishing returns in skill effectiveness to promote macroing as unnecessary.

GM enforcement of regulations regarding macroing to the best of their ability to make macroing difficult.

[edaw22]

Off topic posts will be deleted.

[Derek]

Nice post, well thought out and articulated. I agree with everything except GM enforcement. Their time is better spent elsewhere. If the skill system is designed so that afk macroing is not effective, then they don't need to deal with it.

I don't mind the skill decay. I just don't want to feel like I have to worry and micro manage my skills while I'm playing. If there is a way to set certain skills to raise, lock other skills, and set some to decay that would be nice.

[edaw22]

Skill decay will not be about having to micro manage skill so that they dont decay because Skill decay only kicks in when you hit the softcap or just dont use a skill for way too long, therefore if it is happening you clearly either have too many skills raised and need to specialise your character more OR the skills you do have raised arent important enough as you dont use them frequently and thus you probably wont care if they decay.

In regards to you comment about GM enforcement, please re-read this;

"What many developers and indeed players do not understand is that if a player feels that they can gain an advantage over another player with little effort on their part THEN THEY WILL. It is as simple as that.

Developers can put all the thought, time and effort they want into designing a system that makes the player feel viable, and encourages them to play the game at their own pace in he knowledge they can catch up to others, but all this is in vein if it is easy for a player to press a key on their G-15 or run a script and walk away in the knowledge that when they return they will have progress with no effort on their part."

No matter how well designed and thought out a skill system is and how well it caters to all types of players, if people can AFK macro for an advantage then they will. GM enforcement just needs to be there to keep the, hopefully already small levels of AFK macro to the absolute minimum.

[kiwibird]

Derek wrote:

[GM] time is better spent elsewhere. If the skill system is designed so that afk macroing is not effective, then they don't need to deal with it.

That will need to be tested before its true. For example, just because macroing isn't effective doesn't mean people wont do it for anything other than bragging rights. If you keep macroing the skill you can sooner or later get it to a point where you run the macro for three hours and you have your skill decay capped for another week (example only).

A lot of this game takes from real world situations, but with botting their really isn't anything we can equate it to that DIRECTLY relates to the same issue the game has.

The only two I can think of from the top of my head is slavery and piracy (as on a boat). Which is simply outlawed.

Which I think has jail sentences for both.

[edaw22]

The following is an email from Xsyon regarding the post I made above. Hopefully I provides some interesting information regarding their stance on macroing and what measures are built into the skill system to make it both difficult and most importantly unnecessary.

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Hey Wade,

This is almost exactly what we already have, though some of it is not 100% finished yet. I need to check through the system but it will definitely have:


- Skill soft cap with leveling a skill above 100 getting very difficult

- Skill soft cap based on skill groups

- Skill decay based on least used skills

- Diminishing returns

- Additional skill points based on experience gained.

- Skill increase slowing down based on a use timer. Repeatedly trying one skill over and over will be less effective for leveling than just playing and using skills on a regular basis. This isn’t fully implemented yet.

In addition, I think a lot of the skills are designed to make macroing difficult, and hopefully the game is just fun enough for low level players that they don’t feel the need to race to level before the game is fun.

That’s the basic idea behind having players start off with decent stats. These stats affect skill use and depending on a player’s choices they should start off with some decent abilities and not feel like a weakling compared to the ‘high level’ characters which happens too often in games.

I’ll go through the skill leveling code again to make sure everything is balanced and working once we get the damn server working better and most of the bugs and current changes completely out of the way.

Talk to you soon,

Jordi

[Derek]

Thanks for posting that reply! It puts a lot of my concerns at ease.