01/30/2015 Multi-Story Building Discussion

[Mactavendish]

From what I can see it seems that collision programming for xsyon is a bear, and I really feel for you Jordi.

I also appreciate your breakdown of the percentage of players that are actually complaining... a very small minority.

Once done, I can see this as a huge leap forward for the new players, and we have 5 in our tribe just chomping at the bit to try their hand at building. Yes, a very few vets are complaining about what cannot be done with the new system, but seriously, do treehouses and overhanging ledges REALLY define the limits of what you as a skilled and creative veteran of xsyon can build?

tsk, tsk...

The reason that 3-4 people are complaining with hyperbole and disengenuous words, is not because it takes away creativity, but because it makes what they made by means of tricks and exploits no longer possible, thus their "creativity" will be seen for what it is.

I predict much more elaborate structures, much cleaner looking construction, and much better thought out layouts to the buildings people build. I predict there will be MORE building by MORE people than before, and that anyone will be able to create truely cool structures now, not just a handful of veteran players that are willing to resort to exploits.

Folks, using dirt and cantilevered supports and the new post supports, much of what you are complaining about will be not only possibe but much easier to build. And perhaps that what you really dont like. the fact that others will be able to build even cooler stuff than you did, and much quicker.

I will say in closing that if you are willing to leave this game because he shut down some exploits, then perhaps its time to look for another game. At least give it a chance to bear fruit before you chop down the tree.

[MrDDT]

Oak, I'm not saying there wont be more building. It's going to be much easier, just like when they made the dirt easier to level, you saw more larger buildings (and higher).

I'm saying you lose options. Anyways, good luck I hope it works out that the 3+ months spent on this is want is wanted, at a time when steam is first released.

You act like they are exploits and tricks when without that style of building, Xsyon would have been dead a long time ago. You also act as if you are above using the building system or "exploits" as you call them.

I'm not going to say that it sucks I had to work harder to build what I had than someone coming into the game today. However, that isnt really my issue. It's that the games seems to take 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

You talk about "at least give it a chance". So you are asking for us to see if something bad happens and don't give thoughts of how to problem solve around it first, just toss it in and if bad things happen /shrug. I'm more of one that likes to make sure problems don't happen before I just do things.

It's a fact there will be LESS options than before. This adds NOTHING that we currently can't do. All it is doing is changing HOW we do it.
If you can tell me 1 thing you can do with this new system that I can't do before. I would be happy to keep going. Until then you should look at Why are we losing creativity?

[Whorlok]

i think the new system is good and our guild member are saying the same.I Love it..now i can build phantastic things with more fun and our ideas come to life with this

[Xsyon]

The only pressing question/ concern I have about the new build system is: Once implemented, How do you plan to introduce the new support structures into the game?

Some new parts, such as the basic 4x4 truss, will be auto learned based on skill level to enable basic multi-story construction.

Some new parts (such as bridge and balcony parts that will come with a second update) will be mostly gained through found recipes or inspiration.

[Xsyon]

From what I can see it seems that collision programming for xsyon is a bear, and I really feel for you Jordi.

It's not too difficult, but there are many situations to consider and check. The repetitive testing and waiting for tests is taking me a lot more time than the actual coding.

The real 'bear' for me is learning and revising the AI and Path-finding code. This has been taking up most of my time since January, even with some assistance from the original programmer.

I also appreciate your breakdown of the percentage of players that are actually complaining... a very small minority.

Only a very small percentage of players have ever used the current tricks for multi-story construction. I really wasn't aware until I ran queries on backed up data since launch.

[MrDDT]

Only a very small percentage of players have ever used the current tricks for multi-story construction. I really wasn't aware until I ran queries on backed up data since launch.

Using this logic, maybe you should run logs on seeing how many players make a master crafted item. I guess we should just remove those options also.

Of course only a small % of the population are going to do advanced things, that is how games and anything in life works. Anyways good luck.

Clearly you want building to be the only part of the game that even remotely works and I'm sure the "small percent" of the population that plays a video game is right there with you. Code what you know, and it's showing.

[Xsyon]

I'd like to reiterate and expand on a few things from my leading post in this thread.

The current tricks used for multi-story construction are based on problems and inaccuracies with collision and placement functions. Fixing these functions is imperative in order for me to continue with the following:

- Creature Path-finding, collision and AI
- Ranged combat
- Adding furniture into the game
- Assigning proper building uses
- Completing the building Real Estate system
- Allowing players to attack buildings

I can not complete the current creature revisions without fixing these functions.

Fixing these functions means no more 'drop method' construction, which essentially would remove multi-story construction from the game.

This update will not only add proper multi-story construction to the game, it will make it readily available to all players and not just the less than 5% of builders that have used the trick methods in the past.

The construction system changes are not taking much time away from other game improvements. I commenced work on the construction system in mid January. Although this update is the focus for testing until it's released, it has only been taking about 1/3 of my time. I've spent less than 2 weeks of my 'man-hours' on this task and it's nearly complete. Most of my time since January has been focused on creature code, loading optimizations and bug fixes.

Technically the method currently used for multi-story building is a bug and an exploit that got out of control before I became aware of it. In fact, some players deliberately hid this from me, encouraged others to not report it and spread word that I was well aware of its use when I was not.

As players enjoyed the results and used it responsibly I allowed it to continue rather than implement the proper multi-story system that I had designed. In retrospect, it was the wrong decision.

If I had been aware of the problems this exploit was wreaking on other game systems, and if I had foreseen that allowing this to continue would limit multi-story construction to a tiny fraction of players, I simply would have completed proper multi-story building at that time.

With the new system players will have more control and flexibility with their designs. Parts can be manipulated from a greater distance and placement and movement parameters can be adjusted. Additional levels can be added without the player having to tear down what's already been built.

New site outlines assist the player to line up parts with ease. Parts can be partially sunken and slope limits have been removed. Many new parts will be added to the architect's collection.

Both new construction and renovation should be far easier than before!

[Xsyon]

Using this logic, maybe you should run logs on seeing how many players make a master crafted item. I guess we should just remove those options also.

Of course only a small % of the population are going to do advanced things, that is how games and anything in life works. Anyways good luck.

No, because adding a second story to a building should not be an 'advanced thing' for the top 1% tier of players. It's what draws many players to the game and should be accessible to all.

As explained above, what I am doing is removing a bug and exploit in order to improve many other aspects of the game. As I am doing this I am improving the construction system in general.

[Bejaymac]

I know that on your to do list for some time in the future you plan on having weather affect players, so I have a suggestion to make for the current building tests.

Just now the only way to avoid getting wet from the rain (or snow) is to use a tent/teepee or stand under a roof, yet even in a multi story building the rain can still get you if your a level or more under a roof.

Now I know that the trusses on test are copies of roofs and as such still have that code to stop rain (sheltered under a couple is how I know), so my suggestion is to add that code to all of the other trusses and cantilevers, future proofing our building work.

[Pwnuts]

1. honestly, if i read this there is one point i dont get.
dropping arcs create collision - i agree
the new system allows to make multiple stoys without dropping, but why do player even drop architectures? its really not a big deal to pull up a dirtpile and remove it, just to get some more story buildings. a very few players used the drop methode to drop storages under roofs / inside each other. but the most player just wanted to do multiple stories.

so the whole issue was that you was not able to "move" a wall under another wall because its ( till now ) been 4,3 instead of 4m. fixing this hight would have been the whole solution. removing the possibility to drop an arc from a roof and fix the high to move walls without any glitches or collision beneath each other would avoid the problems and could have been done years ago, if i understood that this was the problem.

2. a player have more options to place a ghost (project) like into the underground, more range, above each other.. but whats about the possibilitys we wont have anymore? floating platforms may not look realistic but building a platform with frames everywhere below looks realistic? i cant tell how glad i am that we do not have such treehouses in europe..

its been your own words in the greenlight video / steam trailer that this is a game with endless possibilitys. this patch just set limits. i would understand if you say both way's would still work, fixing the distance of 0,3m blocking and add frames for who want's them. a frame will set limits again.
- the view of a player inside a building will mess up
- feets of frames will annoy while moving
- long log stacks cant be placed inside buildings

there is right one tribe on the pve server which creats lags for player with an old computer because this guy have hundrets of uncompleted projects. the rendering on this place is very bad. after the update it will still be the same. i even think he wont keep going or even keep playing the game since he wont have the possibility to complete his tribe - result is that this place creat lags for much longer. a limitation of lets say 10 ghosts each tribal area would have avoid this situation too.
i'm sure a lot of people who never builded up something big or difficult will like the patch but only couz building gets really easy, they didnt recognize on which limits they have to build soon. just my 2 cents