01/30/2015 Multi-Story Building Discussion

[Xsyon]

This thread is for general discussion of the upcoming building system changes. Bugs and technical issues should be reported in the other multi-story feedback thread.

First, I know players are wondering what will happen with buildings that defy rules that will be enforced with the changes to the construction system. They will remain. Unfinished parts will require proper support to be completed and I will make adjustments as needed so that players can complete and improve their projects.

I understand the concerns expressed so far and would like to present information that is driving the decisions behind this update.

Technically the method currently used for multi-story building is a bug and an exploit that got out of control before I became aware of it. As players enjoyed the results and used it responsibly I allowed it to continue rather than implement the proper multi-story system that I had designed.

Players have used these methods to build some fantastic buildings! Yet, over time I've come to realize that the negative impact of the current methods outweighs the positive effects.

- The 'drop method' currently used is cumbersome and practically inaccessible to new players.

- This method has caused the creature path finding and blocking maps to be riddled with errors and is the root cause for several major issues with creature AI (such as creatures seen walking straight through walls).

- Using this method to overlap parts has resulted in some interesting creative combinations but also allows for unsightly merged parts causing collision and rendering problems.

- Using this method to place floating buildings has led to some cool constructions such as tree houses, but when used carelessly results in impossible bugged looking structures.

Here are some statistics regarding the current method of combining parts and drop building multiple stories:

Within the past year less 5% of characters that have built buildings have built overlapped parts or multiple stories.

Of the characters that have used these methods, many have been alt characters. Overall, roughly 3% of players that have built anything over the past year have used these methods and less than 1% of new players have reached this point.

Since these methods were discovered, less than 1% of builders have used these methods.

From the statistics and from talking to many casual players, I understand now that allowing the current methods have caused a major problem that active players don't see. The typical new player that comes to Xsyon attracted by screenshots of cool multi-story buildings sees no way of building beyond a single story. Some interact with active players but find the current methods awkward and time consuming and move on.

Very few new players reach the point where they can build in the manner shown off in screenshots and videos that drew them to Xsyon. Proper multi-story construction is needed!

I will emphasize something very important here: In general the current trick method of construction was used responsibly by a limited group of players. Making multi-story construction readily available to all players comes with the need to control construction. Without controls, players will not build responsibly and I can assure all of you that nobody will be happy with the results.

So here's where I am at now:

- I will continue with this update and it will be released as soon as possible.

- I see this as an opportunity to bring creative multi-story building to the average Xsyon citizen as well as greatly facilitate renovation for veteran players. New high level parts and recipes can be added which provide a goal for budding architects to work towards. Increased construction leads to increased need for materials which means increased trade and more new players sticking around longer.

- We'll start cautiously with restrictions and ease them if doing so does not reveal any problems.

- I would like feedback on specific situations that you players would like to be able to continue to build. Adjustments can be made to accommodate creativity and flexibility without compromising the integrity of creature path finding or allowing for ridiculous and unsightly construction. For example:

-- Tree houses: I can add taller and cantilevered supports that can allow for non floating tree houses.

-- Overlapped parts: If some overlapped parts have desirable results, I can add proper parts which combine the existing parts but with optimized collision.

Please provide locations or screenshots with the map panel on to illustrate the situation and I will do my best to allow for similar constructions to continue to be built as long as they will not cause problems.

I hope that this alleviates concerns and I thank you all for your feedback so far!

[MrDDT]

Whats going to happen with the buildings with floating parts already?

[chojinuk]

Whats going to happen with the buildings with floating parts already?

From what Ive seen on the test server already constructed Arch will not be affected so current
floating arch will still be there.

But if you do dismantle currently floating arch made before the changes - it immediately turns Red
meaning that you cant re-build it until you place a Banaya Frame under it, then it turns gray and
you can build it again - removing the frame afterwards.

The new system will prevent new floating arch but finished and built arch seems to be unaffected until you dismantle it.

BUT.... the new system isnt finshed yet so I cant be certain how current arch will be affected - if at all.

Overall the new system will just change how NEW arch is done. - it seems
What am I'm saying is that I dont think anything already built will change.
so nothing will fall to the floor thats already built. ie not a ghost
(I think the worst that will happen is that unsupported Ghost arch will turn Red
meaning you cant build until you turn it grey by supporting it- but dont quote me)

[EDIT - actually while writing this post i already thought of way to do floating arch with the new
system - it seems once its built arch its safe so using both dirt piles and or frames you can build
something on top of dirt or a frame then build the project so its not a ghost anymore and then
remove the dirt and frame. in fact just the same as now]

These arch changes primarily change how ghost arch behaves ie it doesnt drop like before
and it it turns red when not supported.

So drop arch wont work anymore, you can build on a roof, it no longer falls to the floor though.
(due to collision)

So anyone already building with Drop Arch will need to finish b4 these changes go live!!

Maybe Jordi could announce the date these changes will hit the live servers at least a few weeks before he implements it to give players a chance to finish any current drop arch projects.

Sark

[Pwnuts]

Maybe Jordi could announce the date these changes will hit the live servers at least a few weeks before he implements it to give players a chance to finish any current drop arch projects.

Sark

+1 Sark.
at east to be fair

since some architectures will become unique, a new setting for member ranks would be a good solution to keep those.

"dismantle" ( only own architectures )
"dismantle all" leader + ppl who get this rank.

[MrDDT]

+1 Sark.
at east to be fair

since some architectures will become unique, a new setting for member ranks would be a good solution to keep those.

"dismantle" ( only own architectures )
"dismantle all" leader + ppl who get this rank.

Goes even beyond this, we need the option to trade/sell building parts.
If you make something for the tribe as a leader I would like to control that. I don't want later you are a member to any time you choose able to tear down a piece that never can be built again, or cause other objects to fall.

[Bejaymac]

TBH I'm not liking some of the changes, preferred what we had on test previously. I used the frames to build with but left them as ghosts, got the BPs from Uriel before you ask, then I'd place the building parts (floors, walls etc) and construct them, this allowed me to build quite elaborate structures, once everything was built I'd then remove the ghost frames, leaving me with buildings that defy gravity.

The current system means I have to construct the frames before I can construct the stuff on top of them, not a real problem as I can dismantle the frames after I've finished, so I can still have gravity defying structures, but this -

Proper blocking of dismantling so that invalid situations (floating building parts) are not possible.

- scares me, if it means the end of gravity defying structures, then I think most of your builders are going to tell you where to stick your update, and possibly even your game.

[MrDDT]

TBH I'm not liking some of the changes, preferred what we had on test previously. I used the frames to build with but left them as ghosts, got the BPs from Uriel before you ask, then I'd place the building parts (floors, walls etc) and construct them, this allowed me to build quite elaborate structures, once everything was built I'd then remove the ghost frames, leaving me with buildings that defy gravity.

The current system means I have to construct the frames before I can construct the stuff on top of them, not a real problem as I can dismantle the frames after I've finished, so I can still have gravity defying structures, but this -- scares me, if it means the end of gravity defying structures, then I think most of your builders are going to tell you where to stick your update, and possibly even your game.

To me this is a step backwards. Gravity defying buildings (floating parts), is a large part of the building in Xsyon. I understand with the changes of building ground up it will remove the need to float items to build under them, but it also removes a lot of building choices. Like bridges, 2 story large floors. Any rooms/buildings with overhangs, tree houses, etc.

I believe there is a point where realism vs fun gameplay comes at a balance. This floating buildings thing is a fun factor and likely should not be removed because it is more realistic.
I would take extra time to think about it to see is this really what you want Xsyon? Removing some fun/creativity for realism?

My opinion is no. I'm not a builder like many others are, but I feel that removing this would hinder a lot of creativity for people that do like to build.

I think do like Bejaymac is saying, allow it to be built from the ground up, but removing the under buildings after its build would allow floating stuff still.

[Pwnuts]

if there is no alternative way to keep what players build over years i dont think there wont be much players left. jordi would finally kick out the ppl who payed for years.

[Pwnuts]

add the new systems when its fixed but keep the old way...

[MrDDT]

He hasn't done the floating removal thing on the test server yet, from what I understand. That is on his todo list for the patch.
I expect what it will do is remove the floating building choice and I'm not a fan of that even though it would be more realistic.

I'm also not a fan of the drop building removal as I believe it will also remove creativity from players. Right now you can overlap and build projects inside other projects. With that change you will not have that option. I do believe he is debating the collision option, however, I know he hates the overlapping texture issues.