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  1. #11
    Hello everyone,

    First of all, thank you for the comments. This is what these feedback threads are for and this is why I request feedback before changes like this are patched out.

    I'd like to explain the goals behind the Trading Post and other upcoming building uses.

    One of the biggest issues in game is the lack of active community locations. Trade and quest totems are too spread out and difficult for players to find and use. Global chat can make the game feel more alive, but without locations for players to actually run into each other, the game can feel quite deserted even during active times.

    Large tribes are meant to be active community and trade centers that bring new and old players physically together.

    My plan to make this happen includes the following:

    - Add building uses including Trading Posts, Infirmaries, Hall of Fame and Hall of Legends (where you can view leader and achievement boards), Taverns (where you can ‘hear rumors’ of legendary creature locations) and other building uses. Larger tribes would be allowed more building uses and should become centers of activity.

    - Allow tribes that meet specific minimum requirements in terms of active Trade Totems, Quest Totems and building uses to set up a Welcome Station for new players. Welcome Stations would replace the current new player spawn locations. New players would then have guaranteed easy access to both items they may need and quests.

    - Allow players to have a homestead and an active tribe membership. This would allow current homesteaders to join together and create new tribal community centers or join existing tribes where they would use the additional facilities.
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    Next I will clarify a few things:

    1) There will be a maximum of one Trading Post per tribe. The limit needs to be set up correctly.

    2) One main goal of the Trading Post is to give players a way to obtain recipes they want in a less tedious and random manner than scavenging. You will still not be guaranteed that traders will bring specific recipes, but there will be a much better chance than random scavenging.

    3) Trading Posts are in no way intended to replace player trade. Items will be limited and prices will be high. They are intended for players willing to pay high prices to get schemes they want, rather than grind for them. It should give players an incentive to sell more regular items to afford these items.

    4) Trading Posts are not intended solely for the tribe’s use.

    5) I am open to allowing Trading Posts at homesteads, however:
    - Visiting traders would come more often to trading posts at larger tribes.
    - I would prefer to allow this after more building uses are in play. Then homesteads could be allowed one or two uses, while larger tribes could set up buildings with all uses. This would allow homesteaders to run a tavern or trading post (for example), while large tribes would still server as principal activity hubs.

    6) I have been considering allowing tribes to invite individual allies (in addition to allied tribes). This might be redundant once tribes are allowed a homestead and a tribe membership.

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    Next, I’ll respond to specific concerns and suggestions.

    1) ‘Many players don’t use global chat and don’t want to interact with other players.’ Yes, I realize this. However, Xsyon is an MMO and there are also many more players that leave the game immediately because of the lack of player interaction. While solo play is welcome and should be unhindered, the real focus for most players should be building a community.

    2) ‘Favoritism towards large tribes.’ There should be an incentive for players to join large tribe and to use their buildings! Without the incentive, we get what you’ve already said is happening – large tribes deserting the game. I believe that allowing players to have a homestead and a tribe membership will provide the ‘best of both worlds’ scenario and I am moving in that direction.

    3) ‘Trading posts would kill current trade.’ I disagree. Thurgond’s comments bring up some very interesting issues that need to be addressed.

    - Currently players only trade for blueprints. Why is this? What is stopping players from selling basic tools, materials and food to new players?

    I know there is a high demand for these items.
    I know that there is a high supply for these items. Veteran players could easily set up totems with the basic necessities that new players want and need.

    So where is the disconnect? Why isn’t this happening? I think there are several underlying issues:

    - Trade totems are too spread out and not easy to find for new players. New players need to start off at active community and trade centers.

    - Dollar bills don’t have enough value for veteran players. I think that giving these players something special to buy from time to time (via Trading Posts) will create a demand for these long term players to sell more varied goods and collect cash.

    4) ‘A money sink is not needed.’ This could be its own topic for discussion as I’ve received conflicting feedback regarding this. It’s interesting to hear this though.

    5) ‘Mist traders should buy things.’ Sorry, but I disagree. I have two short term goals with the Trading Post feature: To provide a use for dollar bills and to provide a better alternative to scavenging for schemes to enter the game. There is no need to inject more dollar bills into circulation.

    6) ‘Why not tie trade totems together?’ This is something I have considered before. However, this gives players even less incentive to come together and encourages them to sit at their homesteads and deal with everything remotely.

    Once players have a homestead and tribe membership, hopefully they will sell their items at the tribe totem rather than their own personal totem. I could also allow players to remote place sales from their home totem so that those sales also appear at their tribe totem. We’ll see, but there are better solutions than having all trade totems together.

    7) Thurgond’s concern about not being able afford upkeep. In your specific case, you have a large tribe, thus the large upkeep. You will be able to place a Trading Post. Rather than scavenging for schemes to sell, you will be able to influence the type of schemes you get through the Trading Post, buy them and sell them marked up to other players. With other building uses on the way, you could soon set up an activity center and welcome station and sell all kinds of desirable items to new players.

    8) ‘There should be other incentives for players to grow tribes.’ Could you give some examples? I think that building uses are a good incentive with the focus being on building active community centers that players use physically.

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    I hope that this answers everyone’s concerns and questions and changes some your perspectives. The Trading Post is just one small step towards encouraging active community centers in game, which is very much needed.

    I would appreciate all feedback regarding amounts of items available and prices so that this is a well-balanced feature. I think prices should be high, but also could vary from time to time to assist traders who want to buy at the trading post in order to sell to other players at a profit.

    Thanks!

  2. #12
    Xsyon Citizen millsdo's Avatar
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    Excellent post Jordi. That's a well thought out vision IMHO.
    “Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things you only hoped for.”

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    2) One main goal of the Trading Post is to give players a way to obtain recipes they want in a less tedious and random manner than scavenging. You will still not be guaranteed that traders will bring specific recipes, but there will be a much better chance than random scavenging.
    Personally I disagree, totally, I'm sure if you can afford to buy a blueprint at over inflated prices, then you can afford to purchase the blueprint off other players ... the problem here is the difficulty of letting others know what's on your shopping list

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    4) Trading Posts are not intended solely for the tribe’s use.
    I would suggest a regular check to see if the Trading Post can be accessed from off the tribes land, if not the Trading Post ceases to function until access can be reopened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    5) I am open to allowing Trading Posts at homesteads, however:
    - Visiting traders would come more often to trading posts at larger tribes.
    - I would prefer to allow this after more building uses are in play. Then homesteads could be allowed one or two uses, while larger tribes could set up buildings with all uses. This would allow homesteaders to run a tavern or trading post (for example), while large tribes would still server as principal activity hubs.
    Personally I wouldn't want to see trading posts at homesteads, and I'm a solo player, but to me it just doesn't make logical sense why would a tribe from beyond the Mist open a trading post at a one man homestead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    5) ‘Mist traders should buy things.’ Sorry, but I disagree. I have two short term goals with the Trading Post feature: To provide a use for dollar bills and to provide a better alternative to scavenging for schemes to enter the game. There is no need to inject more dollar bills into circulation..
    Again I disagree, earlier you ask why only blueprints are bought and sold, but here you only add to the problem in my opinion, we have an opportunity to create a demand for resources here, if Trading posts act as Quest Totems as well ... in the sense that you can sell resource x,y or z to the trading post (for dollar bills) in quantities of a, b or c until the trading post hits a limit, which resources and what the limits are should change from game season to season, so demand for meat during the winter would be greater, basic grass, cloth and leather goods greater in the summer etc etc etc

  4. #14
    1) Do you encounter any bugs or problems with the system as is?

    No problems designating, accessing and buying from a trading post. I set up 6 or so while testing them. But, of the 6 I set up 5 had only one pattern (no schemes, no BP's) while one had 2 patterns..? I thought they would have 20 different selections and a percentage of those (assumed around 10-25%) would be BP's.

  5. #15
    8) ‘There should be other incentives for players to grow tribes.’ Could you give some examples? I think that building uses are a good incentive with the focus being on building active community centers that players use physically.

    My initial understanding of the trading post was that they would only be usable by the members of a tribe that set them up. It sounds like they can be open to anyone who wanted to stop by, so that in effect does make them usable by everyone in the game regardless of their own tribe size ---sounds good.

    As far as other incentives I did not have any particular ones in mind at the time but, I've always thought that 'buffs' similar to the ones that can be set through the totem (to skills) would be a nice incentive for growing tribes. i.e.: the larger the tribe the higher the buff to skills and other additional buffs to hunting, fishing, gathering --even building (a no hunger/thirst penalty for a certain time period would really be nice) could be offered.

  6. #16
    It is quite a run for us from 782 to the nearest large tribe. We like our place, we do not want to move, we have 4 (3 paying) members, do not really want more (there is no room for them to build, farm,tera, etc). Now it would be worth a run/swim to founders every day to check a global trading post that had players selling stuff. The idea of buying from NPCs (at inflated prices) just doesn't, for me, go with the spirit of a "sandbox" game.

    I guess this update isn't for us. Hope it works out for all the rest of you. until then.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon
    One main goal of the Trading Post is to give players a way to obtain recipes they want in a less tedious and random manner than scavenging. You will still not be guaranteed that traders will bring specific recipes, but there will be a much better chance than random scavenging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax_Ratlin View Post
    Personally I disagree, totally, I'm sure if you can afford to buy a blueprint at over inflated prices, then you can afford to purchase the blueprint off other players ... the problem here is the difficulty of letting others know what's on your shopping list
    The Trading Post should still be a less tedious alternative to scavenging or grinding to introduce desired recipes into the game.

    I agree with your comment. Players that could afford a blueprint from a trading post could afford to buy the same from other players. Yet, according to the game data, trades like this are happening very rarely. At the same time players are grinding crafts or scavenging extensively to gain one specific recipe.

    Why? I have heard and observed a few reasons for this.

    - Players that do have the schemes to sell, don't need dollar bills (or anything else). This seems to be the core issue.

    - Finding what is for sale and where is too difficult (what you mentioned). Players could be building trade centers right now, placing trade totems at an allied tribe and listing sales for nearby ally totems, but it seems that the incentive for players to do this is too low.

    - Some players just don't want to trade and want to do everything for themselves.

    The Trading Post works towards the first issue. If special items (new schemes for example) that high level players want are available only through Trading Posts in exchange for dollar bills, it creates a demand for dollars that should trickle down.

    Building active community centers through building uses (which the Trading Post is just a first step towards) works towards the second issue. Once active community centers are established, and new players spawn at these centers, trade totems at these centers should become more active.

    Again I disagree, earlier you ask why only blueprints are bought and sold, but here you only add to the problem in my opinion, we have an opportunity to create a demand for resources here, if Trading posts act as Quest Totems as well ... in the sense that you can sell resource x,y or z to the trading post (for dollar bills) in quantities of a, b or c until the trading post hits a limit, which resources and what the limits are should change from game season to season, so demand for meat during the winter would be greater, basic grass, cloth and leather goods greater in the summer etc etc etc
    Regarding blueprints: They seem to be in much higher demand than they are being sold, which is one reason why they make sense to me as items to be available through the Trading Post.

    Regarding creating a demand for resources: Well, this is one of the issues I'm trying to resolve. There already is a demand for resources as there is a demand for simple items. There is a demand for food, components and tools. New players need these things.

    There is just not enough reason for the players with the supply to sell these as there is not enough demand for dollar bills and there is a need for active starting locations that have these items for sale.

    Trading Posts create an additional demand for dollar bills. Once Trading Posts are set up, items that high level players would be willing to spend their hoarded up dollars on can be introduced through them. (Let's say, for example: cosmetic items or vanity pets).

    This is veering off into a general discussion on the game economy. I will start a thread on that when I have the time to fully present information and listen to player input.

    The Trading Post is just one building use of many (that's always been planned). It's an easy one for me to set up so I'm working on it first. It won't have a great impact on the game right now, but it does set up a use for dollar bills stored up by veteran players and it's just one step towards creating active community centers.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by wastelandstoic View Post
    But, of the 6 I set up 5 had only one pattern (no schemes, no BP's) while one had 2 patterns..? I thought they would have 20 different selections and a percentage of those (assumed around 10-25%) would be BP's.
    Trading Posts populate slowly, a few recipes per update. 20 is just the current limit.

    Right now for testing only there is a very limited selection of schemes. Once the full tables are patched out I will post here and update the main post in this thread.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Dabent View Post
    It is quite a run for us from 782 to the nearest large tribe. We like our place, we do not want to move, we have 4 (3 paying) members, do not really want more (there is no room for them to build, farm,tera, etc). Now it would be worth a run/swim to founders every day to check a global trading post that had players selling stuff. The idea of buying from NPCs (at inflated prices) just doesn't, for me, go with the spirit of a "sandbox" game.
    That's understandable. If you could join a larger tribe and keep a homestead, would you do so?

    If there was a closer large tribe, would you use their facilities?

    With the coming building use updates and allowing players a homestead and a tribe, I am hoping there is enough incentive for several tribal centers to exist throughout the map so that all players have relatively easy access to them.

    Point taken regarding what fits in a 'sandbox game'. Xsyon was conceived long before I had ever heard the term 'sandbox game'. It was partly inspired by Ultima Online, which did have NPC vendors.

    Regular NPC vendors were never part of Xsyon's design, but 'trade with tribes beyond the mist' as a way of introducing some items into the game was. It was intended to be a bit different, with totems on the edge of mist, not in tribes, but the concept remains the same.

  10. #20
    i'd like to see a charge for selling stuff, finally another way to remove dollars from the game. as long people do not loose dollars and they have no real use except the upkeep, they will never be accepted as currency by the community. trade totems do not remove them from the game, they just move them around.

    yes vet players can stock tools and such to a trade totem but currently the overview at a trade totem is unbeliveable bad that i wont put any (imo) trash items in there which will make just more problems to find stuff ppl may look for.

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