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  1. #21
    Xsyon Citizen
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Right by the Mist
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    128
    The problem with death penalties is just who is it going to affect the most.

    Item duration loss - shouldn't really have any affect on established players as they have the resources to recover, but new players don't have the resources, and going on how hard I'm finding it on the War server getting cash isn't easy as a new toon either.

    Cash loss - pretty much the same as duration loss, wont bother the vets but will hurt all of the newer players.

    Item loss - same as above, but it will be interesting watching vets trying to get their best bone armor and red & white striped shovels back from a rev, especially if it's at max HP, although I suspect your more likely to get a hell of a lot of tickets complaining about it.

    None of it is really going to "hurt" the vets, it's just going to give the Steam crowd more ammo in their efforts to make the game look bad.

  2. #22
    Item Duration Loss has almost no effect on newer players. It will be the vets using good items that are the most affected. A new player losing 10% on a crap item is very very easy to replace even for the new player, and if they can't replace it then it's likely not a big loss or need. Vet players will be more harmed because of the hours and skill levels required to replace a 115QL weapon or suit of armor.


    Cash is the hardest for the new players because it requires scav skill for a new player and actively do it. The goods they have are unlikely to create a lot of cash, however, as the economy builds up better vets will get better at using cash to pay for basic goods like rocks and wood handles that new player can do because they require no skills. Yes it's grunt work, but that's how new players learn the game and raise skills.

  3. #23
    Has anyone thought about death by thirst or starvation? I forget all the time to drink and die most often this way. Already died twice today from thirst. Probably dying now as I write this. lol. I am going to hate this now that I think of it. lol

  4. #24
    I don't like "- Item loss". In games where items are essential and the time to make them is long it's too high a price to take them away on death. Now maybe if you added in some kind of weighting system that would favor low ql or easy to make items it might be okay. I just find appalling that a whole pouch of master tools could get taken.
    This choice would also encourage players to take as little with them as possible. I like the idea that you can take various tools with you and be prepared to do other things.

    I'm not sure if duration loss is fair to high end gear. Master level equipment is not easy to get mats. It would be a shame if folks start to think that the duration reduction make it uneconomical to even bother with Master level gear. If it can be completely repaired it would be better. I'm in favor of an item master crafters can craft and sell that anyone can use to repair. I don't like the idea of people having to seek out a master crafter to trade and get items repaired.

    My preference would be relatively large reductions to combat related skills (not a temporary debuff, level(s) removed) and temporary stat debuffs.

    I also like the idea of using dollar bills to "insure" yourself or items against the penalties of death.

    Do thirst and hunger deaths need to be the same severity? I admit I die all the time to these.

  5. #25
    The majority seems to favor the item wear which is what I also think would be best (and is quite standard). It would be similar to the UO system and accompanied by a repair system.

    I will address a few questions and points brought up as I go through the thread again.

    MrDDT - My worry about this is that people will run around naked again.
    I haven't seen players run around naked in other games with equipment duration loss on death. They did in the very early stages of Xsyon though. Why do you think it could happen again? If there is a core issue that I'm not thinking about that makes Xsyon much different than other games in this respect, I would like to address it.

    Whorlok - For this I would need to add cash as a dollar count attached to your person.
    I'm planning to do this anyways as I think it will be better overall, especially with building uses for cash.

    MrDDT - Do you plan on adding in a Good/Evil system like talked about a while back?
    I would love to, but right now it's not practical. A lot of the system is actually still in place (mostly the evil part, so many players have a very evil alignment right now in the database). The original planned system was planned on a lot more freedom and opportunities to make choices (for example - steal bins on tribe land or perform actions on another's tribe land that are current blocked). I learned early on that we weren't attracting enough mature players or the right balance of player types to make the system I intended work. I also got a lot of negative rants against penalizing evil players back when it was an issue for discussion.

    Alude - I prefer you loosing all skills, items and you have to start complete new.
    This would make for an interesting version of Xsyon actually, but not with the current worlds. (It would require a new server with much faster paced skill gains).

    Pwnuts - 1st of all we would need a system to separate kinds of death.
    I don't see any reason for this other than wanting to death port using the death type with the least negative impact.

    thurgond - return to the original resurrection code. For new players, you originally came back where you died or where you could run to before the "second chance" button came up and the rez timer ran out.
    True. I agree that this would eliminate death porting and I'm not against returning to this for the Peace Server. The main reason for the current porting home was to prevent repeated PvP ganking in the same spot and people reviving surprising players and killing them. I'll think about this...

    MrDDT - It helped PVP because the other way made no sense, and how it wouldn't fix the system is death would have no punishment but 30 seconds missing out of your life.
    With death penalties such as item duration loss though, then there is a punishment.

    Bejaymac - None of it is really going to "hurt" the vets, it's just going to give the Steam crowd more ammo in their efforts to make the game look bad.
    I think it's all in the details. High end items could cost a lot more to repair. Low end items could be affected less. Newbies could be unaffected until they hit a set level (like with the current hunger / thirst death). Regarding the Steam crowd making the game look bad - it's mostly people complaining about charging subscriptions for early access. Unfortunately, it's hard to get people to read my posts about the current state of Xsyon and the reasons for the subscription.

    Kross - Has anyone thought about death by thirst or starvation?
    Do thirst and hunger deaths need to be the same severity? I admit I die all the time to these.

    Death penalties might give that extra incentive to carry around some food or farm, cook or trade for better food to keep your food level up!

    Thanks for all the feedback!

  6. #26
    Most hunger/thirst deaths are not due to lack of good food. Generally a character will die of thirst first, but the main problem is that players forget to eat and drink. Also also players have gone afk and forgotten to come back and log out. With item decay on death, characters may end up gearless after multiple deaths.

    An inactivity logout would help prevent this and save on server bandwidth. Also a sound cue when a character starts to lose hit points due to hunger/thirst would help the inattentive players.

  7. #27
    I agree Thurgond that people who stand around afk for hours would have issues with it. I know I've done that myself. It was one of the cool things I liked was I could stay logged on and do other things go afk. With the new food system I still kinda do it, because there is no real punishment at all. Spawning at your totem is more of a reward then a punishment haha.


    I'm not sure how to fix that though Thurgond. I would like to be able to go afk and not die and be punished to much because I think its good for the game to have people logged in. I believe it's better than telling people to log out every time they want to go afk for 15+ mins. Why I believe it's good is because I know many many times I would see I'm logged in Xsyon and check whats going on and play more. Which is just what we want people to do play more.

    Having said that, I think it's very important for people to feel that dying in Xsyon is worrisome and not want to die. I believe it's very bad for the game to trade with someone and then turn around and say "ok kill me home". It's a horrid system.

    I think the best answer is to have a resting mode which we have that greatly lowers you water/hunger rates allowing you to go afk for hours a time. I see no harm to this, because all you really can do while in the resting state is type in chat. I think it needs to effect water and it would fix that issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon
    I haven't seen players run around naked in other games with equipment duration loss on death. They did in the very early stages of Xsyon though. Why do you think it could happen again? If there is a core issue that I'm not thinking about that makes Xsyon much different than other games in this respect, I would like to address it.
    I think part of that reason is that items have a larger effect on defense and buffs. Most games I've seen armor takes damage down from 1000s of damage to just a couple of 100 damage. Being naked in most games means you likely would be 1 hit by just about anyone. I think about attacking a mob when you are level 60 naked and you would pretty much dead in 1 hit.

    Another major key to item loss though is that it has to effect ALL items not just equipment. Else people will just be naked with massive amount of items on them. Or take the items off just before they die.

    If this happens where item dura loss on death, I think the weight code needs to be looked at to reduce it by about 20% on most items. Also the effect of carts should be increased by like 100%.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by thurgond View Post
    Most hunger/thirst deaths are not due to lack of good food. Generally a character will die of thirst first, but the main problem is that players forget to eat and drink. Also also players have gone afk and forgotten to come back and log out. With item decay on death, characters may end up gearless after multiple deaths.

    An inactivity logout would help prevent this and save on server bandwidth. Also a sound cue when a character starts to lose hit points due to hunger/thirst would help the inattentive players.


    I have died to thirst many times on my own tribeland, simply because I didnt even notice my health drop. When grinding mason it seem i have to drink very often like every 15 mins or so.

    Its normally When Im grinding, I have lots of baskets open, and the thirst and health bars can be inadvertantly covered up, so you dont even see your health dropping.

    I dont know if you would consider some sort graphic affect like a screen flash for immient thirst/food death only it wouldnt be needed for combat related deaths because in combat you know when you are about to die ;p

    Maybe its because at the moment there is no death penalty, except inconvenince, I dont take enough care to make sure I keep the health bars unobstructed from view. Maybe a death penalty will force me to be more vigilant.

    Sark

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    You think it helps trade but it hurts it in the long run. Why? Because people will not need to trade for regional items. See Xsyon is set up for regional resources. With deathporting you make it so the whole world is the same region. Which is why people currently don't care about living in extreme zones when you can go out there get all the mats you want and port it back in a few seconds.
    A percentage of people (unknown but high) "don't care about living in extreme zones" for the same reason people in real life live along rivers and coastal areas --It makes life easier and is much more practical for survival. The people who do live out in extreme zones are probably going to be MUCH more self sufficient by nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    With deathporting you make it so the whole world is the same region.
    A total exaggeration. Like thurgond said, you still have to travel out to said person to make your deal and then deathport home. This is a time saver when you are, for instance, hauling a full bin of granite that with or without a cart you are moving in utter slow motion. In a game that requires you to grind MASSIVE amounts of items endlessly removing some kind of short cuts, albeit with a penalty or not, will also lose players who just will not be willing to put up with the undue time/energy that is required to 'play' the game.

    This regional resource distribution you talk about has very minimal impact on the game. No one cares what kind of plates or nails or whatnot they have unless they intend to make a very specific high level crafted item which by my estimation does not happen all that often. One reason is because some of those items are beyond rare. Where is the tribe sitting on these resources and selling them to great profit? Anyone...anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Biggest issue I see with regional system is currently few tribes that can support it correctly.
    Hire a hundred chinamen (apologies to those from the orient. I did not invent exploitation and don't support it.) working 60 hours a week and you might have something. Short of that maybe it is not supportable? But lets force people to do it anyway..?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    If deathporting is going to stay and you believe it would hurt trade, we need to change the system to simply forget weights and make a mail system also. There is no reason not to IF you believe deathporting hurts trade.
    Where do I sign up?

  10. #30
    Wastelandstoic,

    Of course it has little impact on the game, it's not correctly put into the game. I already said that deathporting makes the whole Xsyon world 1 region effectively.

    About the weight, I already said it was an issue, which is why I said carts and weight needs to be looked at. I said carts need to carry 2x more weight effectively.

    Of course most people do not want to live in extreme areas. Those areas are made harsh, and there should be bonuses to live there to help with the hardship of living there. The "being close" to a resource in this case the resource is epic scav table, and mutant animals means very little when you have deathporting making anything you harvest or get in the extreme areas easy access for everyone.

    I understand you are under the impression that making things easy to do means more people will stay or play, and making things harder means more people leave. This is not supported with real data, because looking at other MMO's and other games, its the other way around. There is a goldilocks zone of not too hard, and not too easy. It's about finding that spot. It's also not like a set spot it can change over time, it can be a big sweet spot or can be very small. But I do know that giving everything people need easy does not do well for games. People get bored and quit. I've recruited 100s of people in my tribe before and when you give everything to people they get bored and quit, you have to allow them to feel like they are working for something. At the sametime you don't want it to seem too hard or unachievable.

    You talk about items being very rare or beyond rare and ask where the people are that sell them? Well that also is part of the system. People wont sell the best items, because the economy doesnt work. When people do not require much $ why sell it? When people are not driven to get the best items how are the few people that want them going to trade away those items?
    Xsyon needs more top end content before you see people trading top end items. That doesnt mean I think Xsyon needs top end content to be the #1 thing to do. I'm just stating how it works and why it's not working in Xsyon.
    Also do not forget that Xsyon has a very small player base currently, thus limited trade already. Out of say 200 people playing, if you are looking for the top 2% items, you have to remember that only 2% of 200 people would be able to really get that. Thus you are talking about 4 people on the server. One of them likely being you. So now you are stuck trying to trade with 3 other people. I know 1 of them willing to trade but likely not at a rate you like.
    Economy is a massive system and a few broken parts and break the whole thing. Currently I believe the cash system is not working well enough so few people care about cash, and cash doesn't leave the game fast. On top of that how you acquire the cash is troublesome also. There is only 1 way to get cash, which is scavenging. Which means scavengers have a ton of it, and should need other things, but because scavenging is such a strong resource gathering skill it dominates everything else. So pretty much everyone is a scavenger and has tons of cash or they are not and need cash and tons of other items that scavengers get.


    I'm saying if you want a regional system to work, you need to support it correctly. Which starts with removing deathporting, and then changing a few things. Like weight on items, and bonuses for living in the harder to reach areas.
    When you think of regional resource system, think of UO and EVE online. I hope that helps.

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