07/01/2015 - Feedback Request - Death Penalties

[chojinuk]

Most hunger/thirst deaths are not due to lack of good food. Generally a character will die of thirst first, but the main problem is that players forget to eat and drink. Also also players have gone afk and forgotten to come back and log out. With item decay on death, characters may end up gearless after multiple deaths.

An inactivity logout would help prevent this and save on server bandwidth. Also a sound cue when a character starts to lose hit points due to hunger/thirst would help the inattentive players.

I have died to thirst many times on my own tribeland, simply because I didnt even notice my health drop. When grinding mason it seem i have to drink very often like every 15 mins or so.

Its normally When Im grinding, I have lots of baskets open, and the thirst and health bars can be inadvertantly covered up, so you dont even see your health dropping.

I dont know if you would consider some sort graphic affect like a screen flash for immient thirst/food death only it wouldnt be needed for combat related deaths because in combat you know when you are about to die ;p

Maybe its because at the moment there is no death penalty, except inconvenince, I dont take enough care to make sure I keep the health bars unobstructed from view. Maybe a death penalty will force me to be more vigilant.

Sark

[MrDDT]

I agree Thurgond that people who stand around afk for hours would have issues with it. I know I've done that myself. It was one of the cool things I liked was I could stay logged on and do other things go afk. With the new food system I still kinda do it, because there is no real punishment at all. Spawning at your totem is more of a reward then a punishment haha.


I'm not sure how to fix that though Thurgond. I would like to be able to go afk and not die and be punished to much because I think its good for the game to have people logged in. I believe it's better than telling people to log out every time they want to go afk for 15+ mins. Why I believe it's good is because I know many many times I would see I'm logged in Xsyon and check whats going on and play more. Which is just what we want people to do play more.

Having said that, I think it's very important for people to feel that dying in Xsyon is worrisome and not want to die. I believe it's very bad for the game to trade with someone and then turn around and say "ok kill me home". It's a horrid system.

I think the best answer is to have a resting mode which we have that greatly lowers you water/hunger rates allowing you to go afk for hours a time. I see no harm to this, because all you really can do while in the resting state is type in chat. I think it needs to effect water and it would fix that issue.

I haven't seen players run around naked in other games with equipment duration loss on death. They did in the very early stages of Xsyon though. Why do you think it could happen again? If there is a core issue that I'm not thinking about that makes Xsyon much different than other games in this respect, I would like to address it.

I think part of that reason is that items have a larger effect on defense and buffs. Most games I've seen armor takes damage down from 1000s of damage to just a couple of 100 damage. Being naked in most games means you likely would be 1 hit by just about anyone. I think about attacking a mob when you are level 60 naked and you would pretty much dead in 1 hit.

Another major key to item loss though is that it has to effect ALL items not just equipment. Else people will just be naked with massive amount of items on them. Or take the items off just before they die.

If this happens where item dura loss on death, I think the weight code needs to be looked at to reduce it by about 20% on most items. Also the effect of carts should be increased by like 100%.

[MrDDT]

Wastelandstoic,

Of course it has little impact on the game, it's not correctly put into the game. I already said that deathporting makes the whole Xsyon world 1 region effectively.

About the weight, I already said it was an issue, which is why I said carts and weight needs to be looked at. I said carts need to carry 2x more weight effectively.

Of course most people do not want to live in extreme areas. Those areas are made harsh, and there should be bonuses to live there to help with the hardship of living there. The "being close" to a resource in this case the resource is epic scav table, and mutant animals means very little when you have deathporting making anything you harvest or get in the extreme areas easy access for everyone.

I understand you are under the impression that making things easy to do means more people will stay or play, and making things harder means more people leave. This is not supported with real data, because looking at other MMO's and other games, its the other way around. There is a goldilocks zone of not too hard, and not too easy. It's about finding that spot. It's also not like a set spot it can change over time, it can be a big sweet spot or can be very small. But I do know that giving everything people need easy does not do well for games. People get bored and quit. I've recruited 100s of people in my tribe before and when you give everything to people they get bored and quit, you have to allow them to feel like they are working for something. At the sametime you don't want it to seem too hard or unachievable.

You talk about items being very rare or beyond rare and ask where the people are that sell them? Well that also is part of the system. People wont sell the best items, because the economy doesnt work. When people do not require much $ why sell it? When people are not driven to get the best items how are the few people that want them going to trade away those items?
Xsyon needs more top end content before you see people trading top end items. That doesnt mean I think Xsyon needs top end content to be the #1 thing to do. I'm just stating how it works and why it's not working in Xsyon.
Also do not forget that Xsyon has a very small player base currently, thus limited trade already. Out of say 200 people playing, if you are looking for the top 2% items, you have to remember that only 2% of 200 people would be able to really get that. Thus you are talking about 4 people on the server. One of them likely being you. So now you are stuck trying to trade with 3 other people. I know 1 of them willing to trade but likely not at a rate you like.
Economy is a massive system and a few broken parts and break the whole thing. Currently I believe the cash system is not working well enough so few people care about cash, and cash doesn't leave the game fast. On top of that how you acquire the cash is troublesome also. There is only 1 way to get cash, which is scavenging. Which means scavengers have a ton of it, and should need other things, but because scavenging is such a strong resource gathering skill it dominates everything else. So pretty much everyone is a scavenger and has tons of cash or they are not and need cash and tons of other items that scavengers get.


I'm saying if you want a regional system to work, you need to support it correctly. Which starts with removing deathporting, and then changing a few things. Like weight on items, and bonuses for living in the harder to reach areas.
When you think of regional resource system, think of UO and EVE online. I hope that helps.

[wastelandstoic]

I play this game AS A CASUAL PLAYER because it does have a low population, because it has elements that are PvE soloable, because I don't have to interact with a single player if I don't want to, because I like being self-sufficient etc, etc. I wholeheartedly agree with a nice middle ground where any player can play as they wish and for THEIR OWN reasons. Not for the reasons data supports or you support but for whatever varied reasons they(I) care to play for. And BTW, the majority of MMO players are much more PvE related (data supported) and there are direct correlations to this and a more casual atmosphere IN GENERAL.

You are wrong in saying that I think making things easy means more people will stay, and hard means more leave. No, I'm saying that it is my opinion that if people with play styles/mindsets such as yourself clamor for the removal of deathporting that it would be a mistake to remove it without first addressing why it is used and wanted by a certain number of players, let alone the fact that it has been in the game 4 years without hardly a complaint.

I only give opinions based on my play style and what I like and don't like about any given issue. I don't give opinions based on 'data' or what I think a developer want's to hear or what 'most people' think. Just what I think.

There has not been and will not be a game that people will not eventually get bored with. I have been bored with this game for a year. I take breaks yet I still come back and play because I can do so CASUALLY. Xsyon is it's own game and in my opinion it's best strength is that it is different and should follow it's own course not some other games model. Again economy is the developers concern not mine. I'll give opinions based on my game play and summarily go back to enjoying what I like about the game. I don't play or not play the game because the 'economy' isn't some ideal thing that exist only in my head or some other game.

At the end of the day if it is THE DEVELOPER'S DECISION to remove deathporting it is my opinion that before it is removed ALL these 'few things' you mention and possibly more should be opened to feedback and then brought into game BEFORE deathporting is removed to adequately compensate for the loss of it.

I never played UO and I have no plans to ever play EVE. They are not games that hold any interest whatever for me because they are PvP-centric, not just in that they have PvP but also in that their whole philosophy is based in that mindset/play style. And, that is exactly my point.

Try this since you want to advocate for what the 'data' supports (based on your own opinion). Go back through all the repeated post you have made hammering everyone multiple times in the same thread with how you think the game should be developed and correlate the times where the developer has took your arguably 'superior' opinion and implemented it outright. That data collection might help you to understand that while you have an opinion equal to anyone else here it most certainly counts not a jot more --therefore a reasonable person might conclude that one or two posts per thread would suffice to express ones opinion. (this makes 3 for me, I'm out)

While I also hope this helps, I'm resigned to believing that it will not.

[MrDDT]

I am a reasonable person and from my understand when you are having a problem or debate or discussion you should have a dialog or back and forth. I believe it unwise to just state something have someone counter and then end of discussion. Why not continue cordially on the topic until you work out all the detail to a satisfaction of all interested or related parties.

Having said that, I never said that PVE was not what most MMO gamers want, I was talking about making something too easy or too hard. I agree and I've said it for a while that Xsyon should focus on PVE. Which is also why I was wondering how he was going to take the good/evil system he talked about log ago. He replied he was going to wait on it. So now I post opinions on the death system for a PVE system.

Removing deathporting before addressing the weight system I think would be harmful also, I agree with you on that wastelandstoic. But I also think making a mail system like WOW or themepark games wouldn't be good for Xsyon's grove either.
Right now I believe the weight system is a massive pain in the butt and need to be changed. Sure it will be unrealistic for people to carry 1000 bricks, but currently they can carry a huge log on their back no problem. Lets at least make the game playable and fun. Then worry about changing some realism back into the game.

I also think we have to take some of your advice with a grain of salt if you want to keep the population low. As pretty sure that is not what the dev wants. I think he wants it relatively low. Like less than 50k but nothing like we have now. So any changes you are basing your opinions on for a low population option to keep people away wouldn't really be inline with what the dev wants. But I could be wrong.

I think it's really clear to put the deathporting option out of the game with full inventory dura loss, with insurance $ option, would be the best option. When doing that, change the weight of items lower, or increase what people can carry. Make carts much much more effective.

[wastelandstoic]

I'll go along with your theory on posting for one more post...

I think it's really clear that you are completely out of touch with the fact that this game has ONE DEVELOPER who has a chosen priority and list of issues that he has set to work on. You in effect by your opinion and it's contingencies would have him scrap that list in favor or yours, which is ever growing and changing based on the game YOU want.

I am playing the game right now and have been for a good while. I like it just as it is. I'm hopeful about any changes that will be forthcoming and welcome many of them, including an increased population --that could increase greatly and still be considered low-- as it will remain an Indy game and that is to be expected.

I think it's really clear that the issue of deathporting (if its an issue at all) be put aside for another time, much farther down the road, when it might then make sense to address it.

[MrDDT]

I'm doing 2 things.

Giving an opinion on what I think needs to be done and when.
Also showing that if you do 1 thing you will likely need to do another first.

You already agreed that removing deathporting you would also have to do something with weight of items or something. I was stating the same thing.

If I were to post just things I want but that were not in the vision of the dev, I would post a lot more than that. It would have to do with territorial wars, and group combat, along with rare items using rare crafted things to get them.
I understand the dev doesn't or can't do these things, and I limit my suggestions and opinions to what I believe he can do, and is willing to do.
Xsyon has wanted regional resources and has done a few things to try to promote it. I'm stating my opinion that if you want regional resources (like he seems to want) then deathporting is stopping that or hurting it so greatly it's infective. Also because people use deathporting to move heavy amounts of items and general trading that if you stop deathporting, you will need to do something about the weight of items and the way that carts work or people will be really upset. The last part at least I know you agree with.

Not listed in the suggestions by Xsyon that I think is a good option is leaving a grave that lasts for like 72 hours. So it would be 100% item drop and you would need to get all your inventory and gear off the grave. Now I've heard how people don't like this and they think back to the old "EQ" days of running back for your grave. So I've not said that either how might not want to do that.

I do not see why later down the road would be good to change deathporting. I'm off the opinion that Xsyon likes to change it sooner rather than later and not do a 1/2 fix. I figure now is the best time with fewer people effected and used to deathporting than down the road when people expect its the normal thing and you pull the rug out from under them.
Xsyon has said before while working on the code he wants to get all of that area done. This would be related to the death penalties code area.

[thurgond]

DDT, despite the number of posts in this thread against death porting, you are still the only person concerned with it. Any death penalty will reduce but not eliminate death porting. Too harsh death penalties to eliminate death porting will just drive players away.

Your whole "regional resources" argument is specious. Heavy items such as bricks, dirt, logs, shadow bear bones, etc. are not regional resources. Regional resources are schemes, blue prints, and rare types of metal and plastic. While heavy items such as poles, studs, sheets etc. can come in rare types of metal/plastic, they are not used in armor crafting so the bonus is not used. A steel pole from my local junk pile is functionally the same as a titanium one from across the map. Titanium buckles/decorations/rivets, etc. are light. A trade for regional resources will not appreciably increase a character's encumbrance.

It's been stated in this thread that cutting the travel time for a trade in half with a death port encourages trade, specially for casual players. You continue to insist that it is killing trade, but have never explained why.

[MrDDT]

You must have missed the post I said that they should put in a mail system if you believe deathporting hurts trade. Wouldn't you agree that a mail system would support this style of trade more?

My point is that if you want to support REGIONAL resource system. Deathporting option makes the whole world 1 region effectively.

If you do remove deathporting, you should look at the weight of items and carts because it will have a major impact on the way that people are playing.

Also clearly you are not reading the thread because I can see that YOU, and at least 3 others are concerned with deathporting.

FYI Shadowbears are a regional resource. They do not spawn in areas and do in others. That's the definition of regional.

You can not find a "pole" titanium or steel in all areas, again that is regional. I never said his regional resource system was working well, in fact I said the other way around.
I hope I cleared that up.

Final note, I think no matter what the option, punishing people that choose to die vs live should be the end goal.

[thurgond]

Final note, I think no matter what the option, punishing people that choose to die vs live should be the end goal.

That's the crux of the matter. You want to punish players who don't play the game the way you want them to. I'd like to see more players playing and could care less how they do it if they don't grief me. Already too many new players hug the shores of the lake and rush to build walls they can hide behind. Exploring and interacting with other players are the best parts of this (and any) MMO. Too harsh death penalties will hurt trade, server population and ultimately Jordi's bottom line.