07/07/2015 - Melee Combat Recommendations?

[Hero]

Maybe there is something wrong with your connection ?
Sark

I have a fiber line of around 70mbps or something similar so if it is my line i am being robbed lol, i reset my pc and its a little better now and i dont know what Jordi did but my ping for first time ever has started dropping below 125 to 100 - 120 (usually a steady 125ms unless i leave tribe) so it IS improving

[Kyosa]

Give us special attacks, and powers with faith. I'm not asking to jump around shooting fireballs. Just saying make some special skills and attacks.

I think thats best solution, but i want to skill it up.

[Whorlok]

A good System is from the old "AGE OF CONAN" fighting System with Combos or from the actually MMO "Elder Scrolls Online"

[treyu]

I think you are trying to bring an utopic combat system for the resources you have and the base game you already have built. Games like Darkfall or Life is Feudal have great non target combat systems, but they spent many many years creating a very complex netcode and related combat system to make it professional and responsive. things that in my opinion after following and playing Xsyon from the beginning, you can't achieve. it is not an insult or a critic, I am being realistic and I think you should REALLY be realistic if you want your game to succeed. Combat is one of the most important things to get into a game, and I am not sure you realize how much. All my guild mates and friends that tried Xsyon didn't like it due to combat. Building is great, graphics are acceptable for the scope of the game, terraforming is great, crafting is nice, harvesting too, but combat.... combat is one of the main focus of an mmo that has PvE (and of course PvP), so it needs to be a very polished, fun and profesional. Which is not at the moment, has never been and if you continue trying to make a very complex, non targeting and groundbreaking combat system with your resources, you will fail again.

I am glad you are trying to change it finally, so use this change to create the best possible combat system for the scope of your game, the complexity of all its features and the resources you have. Games with lot of complex things like Xsyon (terraforming, free building, moving animals, etc) need to be realistic and don't look for a very complex combat system cause it is no possible to achieve if you don't have lot of guys working on it and lot of resources. A simplier combat system is NOTHING WRONG, in fact it will be much better because if it is polished, it works and it is beautiful to see, people will have FUN. No one plays Xsyon because it has a complex melee system or non target combat, they play it and know the game for other reasons. BUT they critize it because of its combat, lag desync in combat and lack of PvP incentives (due to combat too...).

With all that in mind, and even if I hate target combat, I am realistic and I know they are easier to implement, easier to fix lag desync and make it a polished system, and given all the great features Xsyon has, a target combat won't do harm, in fact it could do wonders as you can add abilities, magic, combos, even combat classes or specializations much easier, as all it matters is creating abilities and its effects. In a non target combat, and more witha a complex melee system where you aim your arms with mouse, it is crazy to implement all this with an indie game like yours. So I would choose a target system like Wow, FF14, etc and build it more complex from there later on. beleive me, you will greatly benefit for that change, in PvE and PvP.

But if you really don't want a target system, then go with a soft-target system like Elder Scrolls Online, The Secret World (when enabling "aim" mode), NeverWinter Online, Dungens and Dragons Online, The Repopulation, Tabula Rasa... it is a great compromise between both systems. You are actually targetting, but the system makes you feel like you are aiming as you always need to put the aim reticule into the mob/player to "maintain" the target so hits/abilities are registered. This system (as well as a pure targetting system) is MUCH less heavy network wise, which will free up resources for the rest of the system in the code.

Yous actual combat system is unpolished, unprofessional, plays badly and it is not fun. It was a great idea to try, but failed due to bad implementation because a combat like that needs MUCH MORE resources and people working on it, why do you think games like Darkall, Mortal Online, Elder Scrolls, Mount and Blade had to make compromises in other features to bring that type of combat and took them years of work with lot of people just working on combat and tons of tests?

Don't listen to people wanting a very complex system like mount and blade, mortal online or darkfall, they are very complex for your game...... think just in creating a POLISHED, FUN and with GOOD FEELING combat both in PvE and PvP

Oh, and there should be ZERO excuses to have desync and lag after so much time. An MMO can't have it, more if you have a non instanced world. It is like openning a food shop and giving excuses to your customers because your food is in bad condition because you don't have freeze conditioning, which should be something intrinsic to your bussiness. Everytime I have read your posts saying desync is not a problem, or some players have it others dont, or it is an issue related to people playing from different parts of the world, I just think this game should not even exist. No players should have desync in combat, does not matter the excuse you want to take. Professional and released mmos DON'T have desync or they don't launch till its fixed. Stop working on building parts, terraforming, crafting etc and make a combat system with no desync, no lag, that works for everyone THE SAME and if you can't, change things and take compromises till you achieve it.

[MrDDT]

Well said Treyu.

[Xsyon]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. This does help me narrow things down as there are so many games out there to potentially check out.

I'm not trying to create the most incredible combat system out there, I just want to make sure it's fun and works well. As I stated I didn't write the problematic areas of the current code. (I did write the functions to calculate damage, wear on weapons and armor etc. and these are easy to adjust based on externally set variables). It's clear to me that the current code can easily be improved upon and I've been working on it. So far I've been focused on creature AI and path finding. I'm coming up on the attack code, so that's why I'm looking at other games to observe, compare and learn right now.

Thanks again. I have checked out some of these games a bit and will continue to do so. I'll let you all know what my thoughts are and most likely I will try out various options while working on this big update.

[MrDDT]

Mount and Blade is very ping/server dependent. Which is why they limit so many people to a server and people play on servers close to them like Couter-Strike or other FPS games.
So yes M&B is massively laggy both server and computer/range wise. Which can cause desyncs.

Darkfall and Mortal Online (both about the same combat systems) are very affected by pings, however, the server code is very well done and how they set up the game makes desync less of an issue but still an issue, mostly in ranged combat. Because of how their melee combat works. Desync is still an issue just not as great as M&B.

LIF is massive issues it's not even remotely ready to even talk about, they just starting on it. They also limit all sorts of stuff.

Which brings us to WOW style combat AKA "tab target". Desync is almost nothing of an issue here what so ever. Range checks are most of an issue (either target is in range or not, and looks weird when skills hit things as people are running really far out of range).

Elderscrolls Online did a really good mix of "tab target" and soft targeting. Sorta hard to explain, but you can tab to select your target, or you can fire when ready and hit the first thing in the way. It feels a lot better than tab target mode, but desync is not an issue much at all.

Hardest part of tab targeting would be the need to add many "power" or "special moves". You would need to think of like abilities or skills/powers that do something. Like thrust, lunge, feint, cleave, power attack, etc.
I think being that combat is still fun with tab target and not the main focus of being like an FPS style combat, there is no harm in going tab target. AKA WOW style.

[Xsyon]

Thanks, MrDDT. That's good information.

I was a bit thrown off by Treyu's comments about released MMOs not having desynch which you seemed to agree with. Every MMO I've played has some lag and desynch issues. What's important is how these are dealt with, reduced or covered up.

True, with tab targeting (especially with large ranges / hit boxes like most games have) desynch is rarely a noticeable issue.

Personally, I don't like Warcraft melee combat much, especially for PvP. For ranged combat, it's fine (and does make ranged combat easy). I will definitely check out Elder Scrolls.

[treyu]

Thanks, MrDDT. That's good information.

I was a bit thrown off by Treyu's comments about released MMOs not having desynch which you seemed to agree with. Every MMO I've played has some lag and desynch issues. What's important is how these are dealt with, reduced or covered up.

True, with tab targeting (especially with large ranges / hit boxes like most games have) desynch is rarely a noticeable issue.

Personally, I don't like Warcraft melee combat much, especially for PvP. For ranged combat, it's fine (and does make ranged combat easy). I will definitely check out Elder Scrolls.

Maybe I didnt manage to express myself good. You can have desync issues. The problem is having desync always and a bad combat system always. Every online game with non target combat (also target combat, but lets leave them for now) has desync as an issue. What I tried to say, is that games like Darkfall, for example, don't usually have them. You can have 50 vs 50 and you can play and feel a polished combat system always. Xsyon feels totally unpolished and incomplete combat wise does not matter when. There is no excuse to have desync in your combat system. If it has it, then change it to one that does not have it. Darkfall, Elder Scrolls Online, The Repopulation, The Secret World, World of Warcraft, etc all those games DON'T have desync or non responsive combat system in a normal day. They work fine almost everytime, you log in, play the game and don't have any issue. Maybe when there are many more people together in the same place than what there usually are, which is something punctual, but that is not the norm. For example, in Darkfall you can have 100 people in the same place and combat is fine. Sometines in big sieges with 100+ people some people have issues, but it is not always and on those conditions it is "understandable". But daily, while doing PvE, PvP, etc, there are no issues. Why? BEcause the combat system, and the netcode, are very complex, very tested and they spent lot of money and resources to create it.

Xsyon, on the other hands, always has desync when PvPing, and everyone knows that combat is wrong.

That is why I would create a simplier system. Elder Scrolls Online or The Repopulation aiming mode or The Secret World aiming mode or Dungeon and Dragons Online or NeverWinter Online would be great systems for Xsyon.

[Pwnuts]

some simple skills like a bash would be nice. but i still would prefer to see the combat fixed first. even if we could make use of a bash skill with 30sec delay, i already see the boulder cliff-bashing abuse.

Maybe something pretty simple, since you are workinf on advanced weaponcrafting anyway. Two Handed weapons like an axe. way slower but more powerfull. would be a nice reward for ppl who grinded agility up and can fight well with a decent swing power.