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  1. #11
    Thanks for all the suggestions so far. This does help me narrow things down as there are so many games out there to potentially check out.

    I'm not trying to create the most incredible combat system out there, I just want to make sure it's fun and works well. As I stated I didn't write the problematic areas of the current code. (I did write the functions to calculate damage, wear on weapons and armor etc. and these are easy to adjust based on externally set variables). It's clear to me that the current code can easily be improved upon and I've been working on it. So far I've been focused on creature AI and path finding. I'm coming up on the attack code, so that's why I'm looking at other games to observe, compare and learn right now.

    Thanks again. I have checked out some of these games a bit and will continue to do so. I'll let you all know what my thoughts are and most likely I will try out various options while working on this big update.

  2. #12
    Mount and Blade is very ping/server dependent. Which is why they limit so many people to a server and people play on servers close to them like Couter-Strike or other FPS games.
    So yes M&B is massively laggy both server and computer/range wise. Which can cause desyncs.

    Darkfall and Mortal Online (both about the same combat systems) are very affected by pings, however, the server code is very well done and how they set up the game makes desync less of an issue but still an issue, mostly in ranged combat. Because of how their melee combat works. Desync is still an issue just not as great as M&B.

    LIF is massive issues it's not even remotely ready to even talk about, they just starting on it. They also limit all sorts of stuff.

    Which brings us to WOW style combat AKA "tab target". Desync is almost nothing of an issue here what so ever. Range checks are most of an issue (either target is in range or not, and looks weird when skills hit things as people are running really far out of range).

    Elderscrolls Online did a really good mix of "tab target" and soft targeting. Sorta hard to explain, but you can tab to select your target, or you can fire when ready and hit the first thing in the way. It feels a lot better than tab target mode, but desync is not an issue much at all.

    Hardest part of tab targeting would be the need to add many "power" or "special moves". You would need to think of like abilities or skills/powers that do something. Like thrust, lunge, feint, cleave, power attack, etc.
    I think being that combat is still fun with tab target and not the main focus of being like an FPS style combat, there is no harm in going tab target. AKA WOW style.

  3. #13
    Thanks, MrDDT. That's good information.

    I was a bit thrown off by Treyu's comments about released MMOs not having desynch which you seemed to agree with. Every MMO I've played has some lag and desynch issues. What's important is how these are dealt with, reduced or covered up.

    True, with tab targeting (especially with large ranges / hit boxes like most games have) desynch is rarely a noticeable issue.

    Personally, I don't like Warcraft melee combat much, especially for PvP. For ranged combat, it's fine (and does make ranged combat easy). I will definitely check out Elder Scrolls.

  4. #14
    some simple skills like a bash would be nice. but i still would prefer to see the combat fixed first. even if we could make use of a bash skill with 30sec delay, i already see the boulder cliff-bashing abuse.

    Maybe something pretty simple, since you are workinf on advanced weaponcrafting anyway. Two Handed weapons like an axe. way slower but more powerfull. would be a nice reward for ppl who grinded agility up and can fight well with a decent swing power.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    Thanks, MrDDT. That's good information.

    I was a bit thrown off by Treyu's comments about released MMOs not having desynch which you seemed to agree with. Every MMO I've played has some lag and desynch issues. What's important is how these are dealt with, reduced or covered up.

    True, with tab targeting (especially with large ranges / hit boxes like most games have) desynch is rarely a noticeable issue.

    Personally, I don't like Warcraft melee combat much, especially for PvP. For ranged combat, it's fine (and does make ranged combat easy). I will definitely check out Elder Scrolls.
    Maybe I didnt manage to express myself good. You can have desync issues. The problem is having desync always and a bad combat system always. Every online game with non target combat (also target combat, but lets leave them for now) has desync as an issue. What I tried to say, is that games like Darkfall, for example, don't usually have them. You can have 50 vs 50 and you can play and feel a polished combat system always. Xsyon feels totally unpolished and incomplete combat wise does not matter when. There is no excuse to have desync in your combat system. If it has it, then change it to one that does not have it. Darkfall, Elder Scrolls Online, The Repopulation, The Secret World, World of Warcraft, etc all those games DON'T have desync or non responsive combat system in a normal day. They work fine almost everytime, you log in, play the game and don't have any issue. Maybe when there are many more people together in the same place than what there usually are, which is something punctual, but that is not the norm. For example, in Darkfall you can have 100 people in the same place and combat is fine. Sometines in big sieges with 100+ people some people have issues, but it is not always and on those conditions it is "understandable". But daily, while doing PvE, PvP, etc, there are no issues. Why? BEcause the combat system, and the netcode, are very complex, very tested and they spent lot of money and resources to create it.

    Xsyon, on the other hands, always has desync when PvPing, and everyone knows that combat is wrong.

    That is why I would create a simplier system. Elder Scrolls Online or The Repopulation aiming mode or The Secret World aiming mode or Dungeon and Dragons Online or NeverWinter Online would be great systems for Xsyon.

  6. #16
    All games have desync, just some are less than others. Darkfall's desync is much much less than WOW, but WOW you wouldn't even notice is due to how the combat system works. Darkfall you have even just minor ones and you feel it.

    Like Treyu is saying, you might have desync spotty here or there, less is better. Xsyon you ALWAYS have desync in the current combat system.

  7. #17
    There are ALWAYS issues with latency in a network (internet). The distance between the players and the server is what is causing the latency, and in this universe it is what it is, and will never be any better. In the beginning of game design the algorithms were quite bad at solving this fact and generally it was considered the less latency you had, the better the combat it would be. (old quake for instance).

    Today the algorithms are a bit more capable and take latency into consideration when players go into "combat" vs each other or vs environment. In short both server and client is reset frame-wise and then start an exchange of messages with state updates. In between they both have to simulate actions which will then (upon an actual update) be interpolated into what actually happens, and then again predict->simulate->update->interpolate-> until combat is resolved.
    What happens is the server/client hides the latency in prediction and interpolation which makes for a smooth experience, but which can yield extremely surprising results during longer periods of latency

    I'm happy you start to dig into the combat, because in my opinion it is the most uninspiring thing about Xsyon. I can see (hardly) any similarities with Mount & Blade at all (a game I completely love). I hope you do what Treyu and DDT suggest, decide what should be possible to do in combat (strike, dodge, block, thrust ...etc.) and make those actions as generic as possible, polish it and make them work as smoothly as possible.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Give us special attacks, and powers with faith. I'm not asking to jump around shooting fireballs. Just saying make some special skills and attacks.
    I think thats best solution, but i want to skill it up.
    Last edited by Kyosa; 07-11-2015 at 01:19 PM.

  9. #19
    Age of Wushu (yeah, yeah, I know...) uses a combat system that is way slower (in terms of input) than most games, yet the animations are long and detailed enough that it totally masks the "slowness". They are of course dealing with very fancy martial arts moves with distinct start and interruptable intermediate frames and not just a simple swing of the arm. Skills are limited to a 1 second cooldown between (so even if you spam the queue up, they are processed at one second ticks), and when coupled with elaborate animations give plenty of time for the round trip ping and time for the other player to recognize what move is coming and try to counter it with a parry or counter move.

    They do still suffer problems in situations where there is a large delta between competing players' ping time, however, and some players take huge advantage (read cheat like bastards) of the client side prediction. Basically a super high (slow) ping allows you to move out of the way of attacks while the low (fast) ping client sees the slow guy teleporting all over and away from his attacks. All of the slow players attacks connect as the fast client acknowledges the hit nearly instantly, while the fast client misses a lot because the slow client has time to move out of the way before the "im hitting you now, are you there?" packet gets responded to. They seem to leave a lot of the trust for positioning up to the client side.

    It is kind of hard to recommend a system other than WoW style faceroll 1-2-3-4 when we know that art/animation resources are quite limited.

    I wonder how a UO style system where you have war/peace modes and just autoswing your basic attack when in range coupled with manual "special moves" would work? (Ranged weapons would be 100% manual.) This would be highly PnP RPG style depending mainly on skill checks and "dice rolls" rather than player skill. I don't know if you are willing to push that far away from a more interactive player based system like we have now.
    Last edited by Drevar; 07-11-2015 at 08:07 PM.

  10. #20
    Xsyon Citizen
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    Elder Scrolls Online or NeverWinter Online did a good job.

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