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  1. #51
    ideas are all great but wiping the pvp server with peoples work needs close consideration

  2. #52
    Hello everyone,

    Thanks for all the input. I'd like to clear up a few things as I've done in the past.

    First: I like PvP. If I didn't like PvP there would not have been PvP at all in Xsyon to start off with.

    PvP in Xsyon was originally meant to be like PvP in Ultima Online (when I played it) but with more of a crime system in place. PvP would be a risk and thrill for those that engage in it, but not the major focus of the game.

    I enjoy the thrill, fun and competition of PvP. For me these are 'rewards'. In Xsyon and in other games I enjoy being creative (most games to me lack or limit the ability to be creative). This is why architecture has been a focus. Building something interesting and beautiful in itself is satisfying and rewarding to me. I enjoy options and customizing my character which is why the crafting and armor system was designed as it is. I enjoy immersion and I've tried to make Xsyon an immersive environment with systems like terraforming, tree chopping and planting and the farming system.

    I understand and enjoy having goals and achievements and leader boards were part of my original design but have yet to be implemented as there is always something else to do.

    So that's where I'm coming from as the designer.

    Xsyon originally had a good / evil system partially in place. The system was based on a hidden alignment score and tracked good and evil actions. It was based on criminal and questionable actions such as stealing from other player's bins, chopping trees on other's tribe land and of course murder. Good actions were to include training players, charity (giving items to new players) and similar actions.

    It was scrapped a long time ago for several reasons:
    - Lack of interest from players.
    - Need to block most 'evil' actions like stealing.
    - Great resistance from many PvP players to having harsher penalties / rules for 'evil' players (which was a main part of the system).
    - Realization that many 'good' actions would end up being exploited by players with multiple accounts and time, and there weren't enough planned 'good' actions to balance the evil.

    I would personally like to bring back this type of system into the game but there currently isn't enough demand for it.

    Next: Although I like PvP and played PvP MMOs in the past, I don't like or support ganking and griefing. I don't agree that just because something is possible that players will and should do it. That's why we have common courtesy and when that fails there are Rules of Conduct. In the past we were very lenient with the Rules of Conduct and in the present we definitely are more flexible on the War Server in allowing conflicts and for players to resolve their conflicts with PvP.

    Next: I am open (and have always been open) to adding more PvP oriented systems. As a one man team, unfamiliar with these systems it's not a quick and easy task.

    Siege mechanics are a possibility for the future (on the War Server) but not likely to happen soon. I've always molded the game to fit what our player base wants. There are some requests for siege from time to time and I think it would be cool, but there hasn't been a strong demand for it. It would first entail me playing games with siege systems, seeing what's out there, what works and what's fun. The game wasn't originally intended to have full on siege or building destruction but it evolves based on what players want.

    Other proposed systems are possible and I will address those in a subsequent post.

    Next: Shortly after the Prelude launch, the focus was revising combat primarily for PvP players. Although I like the system and it received praise at the time, it does have problems.

    Right now I'm working on creature and combat changes (and have been for a while). This is both for PvE and PvP. This is taking a very long time as I've needed to work on systems such as architecture that stood in the way of progress.

    One recurring PvP request has been for players (and creatures) to be able to attack buildings. For this to happen (and for proper creature path finding), I needed to fix some functions that players were using to create multi-story buildings. By fixing those I needed to implement a proper multi-story system (which the game now has). Once that was done, players built more and I needed to greatly optimize loading and collision functions.

    Now that's all out of the way and I can implement planned creature and combat changes including ranged combat.

    Ironically, I received complaints and criticism from some PvP players for making these changes which were required if they want to see buildings being attacked, ranged combat and other combat features they have been requesting!
    Last edited by Xsyon; 01-18-2016 at 12:10 PM.

  3. #53
    Thank you for that Jordi, We vets really appreciate the clarification.

    And, thank you for all the hard work you have done over the years!

    As to what this thread is about, I have been here from the start, and saw all the pvp folks rant and rave over various issues, convince The dev to change things and then get upset it was not something they could abuse.

    It is obvious to me that ddt et al, want to be able to gank and dominate, thats the advantage they want, and Jordi has clearly stated he won't do that. So... you are left to work within his vision of the game HE is building or perhaps move on to another game you like better.

    Surely after all this time, you must realize that he is not going to give in to a very few vocal players and snub the majority of players, most of which moved over to the pve server once it became available.

    Why you folks ( DDT and Ilis ) cant get this is beyond me.
    Last edited by Mactavendish; 01-18-2016 at 11:37 AM.

  4. #54
    To mush:

    Maintaining both servers is not an issue and like I stated I enjoy PvP so I wouldn't want to remove the PvP server. I started this thread simply to get more feedback on the suggestion because:

    - It received more responses than a typical request (both on the forums and from players highly requesting the change through the help system). Some players really wanted to see it happen.

    - It's a controversial request. Most suggestions are simpler and wouldn't offend anyone if implemented.

    Not much else to it!

  5. #55
    Now regarding the most recent proposal. Here is what I could do:

    1) The PvP server gets divided into PvE (Safe) and PvP (Conquest) zones. What makes most sense to me is to make the current high danger zones PvP zones.

    2) Resource gains can be bumped up in these high danger PvP zones. This could be higher amounts per pull and greater chance of finding rare items and materials. I'm open to other suggestions.

    That's easy enough and could be done.

    I need more information on the rest of what's being proposed as it's currently not clear to me.

    1) Things to fight over: What would this entail?

    2) Full loot in Conquest zones vs random dropped item in Safe zones: This isn't clear to me. Would 'Safe' zones still allow for PvP and the only difference would be the limited looting? To me a random dropped item is about the same as no looting at all (but requires more work on my end).

    3) Options for tribe to war each other in PvE areas: What would this entail? Tribes setting a switch? Tribes dropping safe zones? Tribes setting a specific war switch with another tribe.

    4) Tribe take overs: What would this entail? Conquering tribe now controls the old tribe? Or just open looting for a period of time?

    Things that are still not going to be possible for a while:

    1) Full destruction of buildings. Attacking doors would be possible. Breaching a wall maybe. Full destruction would be difficult. For example what happens if you attack and knock down a column? Does everything supported above it collapse? A proper system would be complex and would require a lot of destroyed art work to make it nice.

    2) Siege weapons. Would require art work that I can't create alone.
    Last edited by Xsyon; 01-18-2016 at 12:34 PM.

  6. #56
    Next here is a system I was considering and designing in the past but never posted about.

    Tribe controlled territories

    - Tribes of 'x' size would be allowed potential control over an entire territory. To first control a territory they must have their tribe within the territory and then place 3 (or so) control totems within the territory.
    - Control totems would claim a small plot of land.
    - Every 'x' days (or using some other mechanism) control totems would become 'open' for a certain period of time (an hour for example).
    - While open, players from another tribe can occupy the control totem area and take it over.
    - Claiming a control totem would be occupation based (like several PvP objectives in Warcraft where having a player of a faction increases its value until a limit is reached and the objective is claimed).
    - If the limit is not reached during the 'open' time, the current tribe retains control.
    - Control of the territory would allow the tribe to set the entire territory to Safe or PvP
    - Control of the territory would give the tribe and its allies resource bonuses.
    - Optionally, control of the territory could prevent non tribe members and allies from gathering resources on the land.
    - Tribes could gain control and advantages over other territories by capturing all control points.

    Is there any interest in this type of system?

    Note: The reason I did not post this in the past is because too often when I mentioned things I was considering or working on players then claimed that I 'promised' these systems. The game constantly evolves and many times I've had to abandon ideas and work in progress. This is why more recently I try to keep silent on things that are not directly in testing or heavily in the works.

  7. #57
    Hello everyone,

    Thanks for all the input. I'd like to clear up a few things as I've done in the past.

    First: I like PvP. If I didn't like PvP there would not have been PvP at all in Xsyon to start off with.

    .................snip...................

    Now that's all out of the way and I can implement planned creature and combat changes including ranged combat.

    Ironically, I received complaints and criticism from some PvP players for making these changes which were required if they want to see buildings being attacked, ranged combat and other combat features they have been requesting!
    Thank you for reading through this issue and trying to work it out.

    I know a lot of people only see me as a PVPer on here but I'm a well rounded player doing all that is in the game. From my understanding on why there might be complaints and criticism is because things were asked for and we were told they would be in the game long ago. Like ranged combat. I've been told dozens of times in the last 5 years "It's ready just need to do x". So the latest building stuff is just another x to the list of us waiting months and years for something we've wanted. How many building updates have we had with new types of building stuff? Yes I know it's your forte but understand that building is doing great, can we move on to other parts of the game?
    Personally, I understand fully why the change in building had to be done for the AI. So yes I see that but there has been 100s of patches that combat hasn't been updated. Plus the times it was, was "fixed" but couldn't be fully fixed and sent on the back burner for years. Mostly because of the free trials, then steam, then for posts etc etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mactavendish View Post
    Thank you for that Jordi, We vets really appreciate the clarification.

    And, thank you for all the hard work you have done over the years!

    As to what this thread is about, I have been here from the start, and saw all the pvp folks rant and rave over various issues, convince The dev to change things and then get upset it was not something they could abuse.

    It is obvious to me that ddt et al, want to be able to gank and dominate, thats the advantage they want, and Jordi has clearly stated he won't do that. So... you are left to work within his vision of the game HE is building or perhaps move on to another game you like better.

    Surely after all this time, you must realize that he is not going to give in to a very few vocal players and snub the majority of players, most of which moved over to the pve server once it became available.

    Why you folks ( DDT and Ilis ) cant get this is beyond me.

    Of course I want to dominate, I'm a person that likes competition. As for ganking? Well your term of 'ganking' is likely nothing like most people. 1v1 is not ganking.

    What can't we get? PVP that works in Xsyon? So far we've not got that because 1/2 of the things PVPers need and asked for do not get put in place which messes up the other 1/2 of the systems we do get and are in place. Much like the combat system. Xsyon's combat is cool so far, expect the fact it's missing abilities, ranged combat, and massive desync. So yes we will complain when only 1/2 or less of something we ask for is put in place without the other 1/2. It would be like ordering a Turkey sandwich and getting some mayo and bread. Pretty sure you would not have a sandwich you want and likely be upset about it.

  8. #58
    The true issue DDT is that you don't want to accept simple statements made along the way, like "things will get adjusted due to player input" or the game evolves as it goes along.

    That's really simple wording.

    none of this was "promised" to you is was an idea that was on the table and if he could work it out he would but if issues cropped up he may or may not deliver. I never had any other expectation.

    Please try and live in the same universe as the rest of us and realize this game was not designed for you specifically, it was a group thing, and the group didn' t like your ideas enough to support them.

    Oh and as for ganking, I'm sure anyone would agree with this definition... "killing another player that is too low in skill or defenses to put up a reasonable fight, or is so out matched as to have no chance at success." That my friend defines you exactly. ( personal experience )

    Advantages should go to the players that put in the time and effort to have earned the advantage. Tell you what, delete your toons and start fresh on war server and see how it goes. I'm very sure you won't because you will not be automatically superior than any other current player.

    Therein lies the true reasoning behind your comments.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    Now regarding the most recent proposal. Here is what I could do:

    1) The PvP server gets divided into PvE (Safe) and PvP (Conquest) zones. What makes most sense to me is to make the current high danger zones PvP zones.
    Yes exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    2) Resource gains can be bumped up in these high danger PvP zones. This could be higher amounts per pull and greater chance of finding rare items and materials. I'm open to other suggestions.

    That's easy enough and could be done.
    Awesome!


    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    I need more information on the rest of what's being proposed as it's currently not clear to me.

    1) Things to fight over: What would this entail?
    Control points that people can't build towns on (or at least not ones that can't be torn done with siege as requested for later) that yield rewards. Maybe those locations give 5x more resources per action, or maybe you have to build a mining station there and only use it to gather resources at a much higher rate and QL. Or maybe it's a station that gives 5x faster skill gains. Or a combat area that gives 5x faster stat gains.
    If people are standing there doing actions for defending they would be a target for attack and people would want to do this. UO had 2x resource gains in all the PVP area, and a few parts of the PVP area yield rare nodes that are only spawned in that area which made it a very high combat area of strife.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    2) Full loot in Conquest zones vs random dropped item in Safe zones: This isn't clear to me. Would 'Safe' zones still allow for PvP and the only difference would be the limited looting? To me a random dropped item is about the same as no looting at all (but requires more work on my end).
    Conquest areas would be like PVP heavy contested control point areas. "Safe zones" would be the rest of the PVP area, and then fully safe areas would be the PVE and own tribal areas.
    Why 1 random item, is it prevents people attacking over and over (no loot drop) but doesnt cause enough punishment that griefers will cause on people. Losing all your gear is a major risk for many people this would lower the risk greatly without completely removing it. But the contested/conquest areas should have a higher risk. These random drop areas are like PVP lite areas. No a lot of reward but some risk for some PVP. PVP Conquest/contested areas are a lot of reward with a lot of risk.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    3) Options for tribe to war each other in PvE areas: What would this entail? Tribes setting a switch? Tribes dropping safe zones? Tribes setting a specific war switch with another tribe.
    Well for starters you need what would it take to require to war someone? The less it costs to war someone the lower things it should open up to them. Personally I believe the cost should be relatively high and open up things like destruction of tribal areas and killing members on tribal lands, along with full loot of members in all zones of the PVP server. Now how would wars should also come with a notice before they happen to give tribes to prepare for the attacks. Most games do 1 to 3 days, with it lasting a set time. The system isn't perfect and I think the topic if looking to be put into place would need to be discussed because there are ways to grief other players through war tactics, even on the PVP server you don't want to grief someone.



    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    4) Tribe take overs: What would this entail? Conquering tribe now controls the old tribe? Or just open looting for a period of time?
    Either way, but remember I think taking over a tribe should be based on the work put into that tribe. It takes months to build a tribe losing that to 1 guy in 5mins would be silly. Plus because the system is being put into place after the servers have been around for a while, I suggest putting options like this only in place in "choice" areas. Meaning areas where people choose to move into or have a tribe knowing the new rules.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    Things that are still not going to be possible for a while:

    1) Full destruction of buildings. Attacking doors would be possible. Breaching a wall maybe. Full destruction would be difficult. For example what happens if you attack and knock down a column? Does everything supported above it collapse? A proper system would be complex and would require a lot of destroyed artwork to make it nice.
    Understood. But you could maybe limited it to a few object types that can be harmed. Most of this stuff I would think also would only apply to new buildings at first because I would suggest testing this out in areas where people have not built yet to give people a chance to prepare and choose this type of life/warfare.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    2) Siege weapons. Would require artwork that I can't create alone.
    At first they could be as simple as blunt weapon. You could even use a current model and change the name and settings of it. I expect that sieges would be a long ways away.
    Darkfall had mostly 2 handed hammers for siege for a long time.





    Quote Originally Posted by Xsyon View Post
    Next here is a system I was considering and designing in the past but never posted about.

    Tribe controlled territories

    - Tribes of 'x' size would be allowed potential control over an entire territory. To first control a territory they must have their tribe within the territory and then place 3 (or so) control totems within the territory.
    - Control totems would claim a small plot of land.
    - Every 'x' days (or using some other mechanism) control totems would become 'open' for a certain period of time (an hour for example).
    - While open, players from another tribe can occupy the control totem area and take it over.
    - Claiming a control totem would be occupation based (like several PvP objectives in Warcraft where having a player of a faction increases its value until a limit is reached and the objective is claimed).
    - If the limit is not reached during the 'open' time, the current tribe retains control.
    - Control of the territory would allow the tribe to set the entire territory to Safe or PvP
    - Control of the territory would give the tribe and its allies resource bonuses.
    - Optionally, control of the territory could prevent non tribe members and allies from gathering resources on the land.
    - Tribes could gain control and advantages over other territories by capturing all control points.

    Is there any interest in this type of system?

    Note: The reason I did not post this in the past is because too often when I mentioned things I was considering or working on players then claimed that I 'promised' these systems. The game constantly evolves and many times I've had to abandon ideas and work in progress. This is why more recently I try to keep silent on things that are not directly in testing or heavily in the works.
    This system is used in Shadowbane very well. It was a "mine" system. There was about 30 mines all over the map that had "conquest time". Which means the tribe controlling that mine would get x resources per hour from that mine and there would be a window of conquest, where whoever controlled that mine at the end of the conquest timer would win the mine for the whole day.

    I really like this idea a lot. I understand it's not set in stone and you are working on it, but these are what people are wanting for PVP objectives. Give the people something to fight for.

    My ideas are not fleshed out perfectly, and just giving you some overall ideas of how other games have done it or what might be a good idea.

    I think this last idea you have here is very good and would get a lot of interest in PVP and Xsyon.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDDT View Post
    Control points that people can't build towns on (or at least not ones that can't be torn done with siege as requested for later) that yield rewards. Maybe those locations give 5x more resources per action, or maybe you have to build a mining station there and only use it to gather resources at a much higher rate and QL. Or maybe it's a station that gives 5x faster skill gains. Or a combat area that gives 5x faster stat gains.
    First, thank you Xsyon for the reply.
    I am not going to say anything about pvp server whatever you do is up to you.
    The reason why I quoted ddt is, I like your idea ddt and it could be implemented on pve server as well, for this to work on pve it has to be connected with tribe size, larger the tribe better the reward for all members.

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